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Just how stupid do the Tories think we are?

(159 Posts)
CvD66 Fri 22-Sep-23 11:03:37

‘Keep people fearful and they are easier to lead’ is a long held, erroneous theory often espoused by politicians. Sunak’s latest claim to cancel 7 environmental policies were designed to make people fearful - and to be relieved that he ‘cancelled’ them. These 7 policies did not exist. There are vague hints of elements of these in some enviromental research papers but NO ONE has remotely suggested these will be implemented. Yet Sunak can blithely announce he has cancelled these so we are all supposed to be delighted. What he has done is provoke lots of derision and other ‘ideas’ of things he could cancel next eg: toothpaste tax., air tax etc Help people recognise they are being duped!!

DaisyAnneReturns Fri 22-Sep-23 21:33:12

maddyone

Twas ever thus.
All politicians think the population are stupid, and they are pretty well all lacking in any real care towards any of us. The higher up the greasy pole they climb, the more contemptuous of us they become.
Don’t trust any of them, whatever their political allegiance. They are in it for themselves and themselves alone. Do not think they care about you, the poor, the disabled, the pensioners, the sick, or anyone else. They care about power.

Yes, I’m cynical. I wonder why?

So you believe that in our everyday behaviour we all behave as badly as the worst at of us? The idea that all politicians are the same lacks logic and is basically someone pretending none of it us their fault.

If our democracy is attacked, and it has been and is being, each if us has responsibility to some degree. The fact that most of us have no idea how we can put it right, rather than just talk about it, puts us all in the same category as most politicians.

maddyone Fri 22-Sep-23 23:21:51

It’s not my fault DAR, it’s the fault of the politicians. Please refrain from being so condescending and rude about me.

Katie59 Sat 23-Sep-23 07:44:15

silverlining48

Bring it on. No one can be worse than these clowns

I can think of many countries where politicians are much much worse than ours, that does not excuse the way that ours have been behaving recently.

Iam64 Sat 23-Sep-23 08:47:39

I wouldn’t identify as cynical. I don’t agree with the often used comment that all politicians lie, they’re all in it for themselves, none are to be trusted. Politicians, like other ambitious people come in all shapes and sizes.
Like the police, they reflect the society they serve. The country voted Johnson in with a huge majority, the tragedy is that as the non Tory voters predicted, it’s been disastrous for the country.
Starmer and his front bench may not be perfect. It’s got to be better than the current lot

Witzend Sat 23-Sep-23 08:52:53

Salti

You're no more cynical then I am. I think it takes a "certain" type of person to succeed in politics. I watched the 1990 mini-series House of cards this week, set in Westminster, and thoroughly enjoyed it. As the French would say, "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose".

Yes, it’s brilliant.
I recently re-read the novel, and was interested to read how it came about. Apparently Michael Dobbs was on holiday with his wife or partner, and endlessly complaining about how rubbishy the novel he was reading was.

Eventually utterly exasperated, she said, ‘Well, if you think you can do better, get on and do it!’ (Or words to that effect.)
And he did.

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 23-Sep-23 08:53:00

maddyone

It’s not my fault DAR, it’s the fault of the politicians. Please refrain from being so condescending and rude about me.

You misread before you decided to harangue me maddyone. I very clearly said:

If our democracy is attacked, and it has been and is being, each if us has responsibility to some degree.

We vote in people who are our representatives. To suggest we no agency allows those who wish to rule rather than represent to believe we are handing them exactly that when we vote.

To suggest all politicians are the same is akin to suggesting all people behave in the same way. Neither is true.

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 23-Sep-23 08:54:01

if of

MaizieD Sat 23-Sep-23 09:00:37

Witzend

Salti

You're no more cynical then I am. I think it takes a "certain" type of person to succeed in politics. I watched the 1990 mini-series House of cards this week, set in Westminster, and thoroughly enjoyed it. As the French would say, "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose".

Yes, it’s brilliant.
I recently re-read the novel, and was interested to read how it came about. Apparently Michael Dobbs was on holiday with his wife or partner, and endlessly complaining about how rubbishy the novel he was reading was.

Eventually utterly exasperated, she said, ‘Well, if you think you can do better, get on and do it!’ (Or words to that effect.)
And he did.

You do realise that novels are works of fiction (as are TV series such as 'Yes Minister'). They may be based on fact, but they are not fact.

Why don't people read factual, non fiction, analyses of how our government & politicians 'work', for a more balanced picture?

Luckygirl3 Sat 23-Sep-23 09:12:53

Another of my book reviews - but it seems relevant to this thread. I wrote the review around the time Johnson became PM.

Why We Get The Wrong Politicians, by Isabel Hardman

This book seemed highly pertinent at the time of reading, and of writing this review – November last year.
Hardman is a Westminster lobby journalist and assistant editor of The Spectator, so has been able to observe the workings of the House of Commons at close quarters. She analyses the motivations of those who stand for Parliament, followed by their rapid disenchantment as they start to work out that they are virtually powerless. She is in the main sympathetic to MPs, recognising the home-wrecking nature of their chosen career path, and the huge sacrifices that have to be made in so many areas: health, family life, finances, moral standards, idealism. It is a sorry tale of sheer impotence in the face of an arcane system in Westminster.
She acknowledges the presence of corrupt self-serving individuals - but did they start out that way, or did the system at Westminster push them in that direction as being the only rational course of action to save their career?
She observes the novice MPs who arrive bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, fresh from their heady triumph, and full of political fervour to improve the nation, but find themselves sucked into jostling for a remote chance of making a difference; and faced with massive moral compromises. Such painful disillusionment presents a dilemma: give it all up and face the fact that all that hard work and massive expenditure were in vain, and try and pick up the pieces of your life without too much loss of face; or go with the flow and try to carve a niche for yourself by fair means or foul?
She asks: “Why would anyone with a vaguely decent perspective on life and a few hobbies want to go anywhere near Parliament?” And her answers are not unkind – she recognises the often laudable motives of many candidates, and laments the fate of so many as they cave in to the prevailing moral mire that confronts them at Westminster.
The pathway to Parliament demands money in quantities that many candidates underestimate, which is why “We end up with a political class that cannot instinctively see the impact of bad policies on the most vulnerable.” Not bad people then, she seems to say, just ignorant of real life.
She is full of praise for the dedication of many MPs to their constituency casework. How sickeningly ironic it is that so much of their time is spent sorting out the impact of their own flawed legislation on ordinary people.
This is a good book, with her assertions well researched and backed-up; and a real compassion for those decent people who find themselves locked into a system that leaves many frustrated and miserable, and easy prey for the booze and the marriage-destroying charms of fresh newly- graduated young assistants. It is also a very sad book – sad for the individuals involved and sad for all of us whose lives are dictated by legislation that is passed under such devious processes.
“What is far worse than the few fools and failures that every parliament seems to contain is the fact that the House of Commons is – both structurally and culturally – not working, and that will remain the case no matter how many snap elections we have over the next few years.”

Iam64 Sat 23-Sep-23 09:14:01

Good point MaizieD. It’s like pretending The Archers really is filmed in a small village

GrannyRose15 Sat 23-Sep-23 09:23:03

For the uninitiated please can someone list these non existent policies.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 23-Sep-23 09:29:46

Well it would appear that the voter is not as stupid as Sunak and his cohorts hoped we are.

Sunak’s ratings has plummeted to the lowest ever since his “green” speech.
And support for the Tory party has dropped once again.

The clearly saw through his foolish lies and disagree profoundly with delaying and measure to tackle the worst crises the world has faced.

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 23-Sep-23 09:30:33

Iam64

I wouldn’t identify as cynical. I don’t agree with the often used comment that all politicians lie, they’re all in it for themselves, none are to be trusted. Politicians, like other ambitious people come in all shapes and sizes.
Like the police, they reflect the society they serve. The country voted Johnson in with a huge majority, the tragedy is that as the non Tory voters predicted, it’s been disastrous for the country.
Starmer and his front bench may not be perfect. It’s got to be better than the current lot

It is the behavior in the last 13 years of this government that makes me begin to think we may have to move to a written constitution. I no longer believe those who take the highest positions in government should be left to do it only on trust.

If Starmer really wants more devolved government, and Labour wins the next election, this could be the time to start doing just that.

The original spark for this bit of thinking on my part Iam came from listening to the latest "And The Rest Is Politics", which I think you would find particularly interesting. I listened to the two Andy's talking about what they do and believe as Combined Authority Mayors (more about place than politics). Andy Burnam then mentioned that a "basic law" is written into the German constitution that requires an equivalence of living standards between the 16 Landers of Germany. It set my mind whirring about whether, now we can see some politicians will simply not uphold the rules and laws of the unwritten constitution, it is the time to codify it?

I started a thread about the podcast here It includes a link.

GrannyRose15 Sat 23-Sep-23 09:31:15

Iam64

“Starmer and his front bench may not be perfect. It’s got to be better than the current lot”

Well we’ll see won’t we. I hope you are right but very much fear you are not.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 23-Sep-23 09:37:36

GrannyRose15

Iam64

“Starmer and his front bench may not be perfect. It’s got to be better than the current lot”

Well we’ll see won’t we. I hope you are right but very much fear you are not.

My goodness, repeat the past 13 years and where on earth will the uk be!

The tories are terrible as managing the economy,
Terrible at managing the NHS
Terrible at managing climate change
Terrible at managing public services

Very good at awarding their “friends”
Very good at breaking ministerial rule
Very good at sleaze
Very good at corruption

The country couldn’t possibly afford another Tory government .

We would sink without trace.

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 23-Sep-23 09:56:06

This view if our politics it being spoken aloud more and more Maisie. Because of our system, that traps us in two party government, most MPs end up as canon fodder. The are marched through the lobbies, sometimes (often?) against their conscience because of the win or loose nature of parliment. The brilliant speeches, often made by back benchers, seem to be a thing of the past.

I wonder how many people actually realise that we do note vote for a Party or a leader, but for a manifesto. That manifesto should be able to be passed, by our representatives, unheeded. Yet so wide are the parties that many members of them don't agree even though they are elected on that manifesto!

If you have time to listen to the ATRIP addition I flagged for Iam I would love to hear what you think too. Even if we don't agree on the whole, I always end up learning to look differently because of yours and others posts. That, I believe, is the true "good" that comes from debate.

Grantanow Sat 23-Sep-23 10:00:37

Iam64

Good point MaizieD. It’s like pretending The Archers really is filmed in a small village

Er, does one film for radio?

nanna8 Sat 23-Sep-23 10:05:08

The thing is, if you think the opposition will be any better you are most likely in for a sad disillusionment. We think that every time the government changes side. Never happens. Just gets worse and worse.

Lovetopaint037 Sat 23-Sep-23 10:07:46

One thing is for sure and that is we can’t have this incompetent, self serving lot in for any longer than we are forced to. My opinion in general is that we are governed in the main by people with little of the experience necessary for the job. Sunak jumped up the greasy pole in giant leaps. His inability to manage his party and his support of those he needs to keep on side is part of that experience. Where is the astuteness and indeed craftiness of mind that is needed as a leader? I can’t help thinking of Harold Wilson in this respect. Hoping that Starmer will show some strength as we are certainly in need of a change which will give us some hope and credibility.

Lovetopaint037 Sat 23-Sep-23 10:08:40

should be lack of experience.

DaisyAnneReturns Sat 23-Sep-23 10:33:41

GrannyRose

* Stop taxes on eating meat.
* Stop taxes to discourage flying
* Stop us being forced to sort rubbish into seven bins.
* Stop compulsory car sharing.
* Stop expensive insulation upgrades

Only one of these, which he says he is cancelling, even exists or has been suggested. By stopping the last one, which will only be "expensive" relative to the neglect of the property so far, he will simply make the poorest poorer.

Freya5 Sat 23-Sep-23 14:30:19

GrannyRose15

Iam64

“Starmer and his front bench may not be perfect. It’s got to be better than the current lot”

Well we’ll see won’t we. I hope you are right but very much fear you are not.

Sorry but you are very wrong on this.
He's already u turned on things, how can the public trust someone, who may get into power, who already shuffles to the tune of what people want to hear,rather than sticking to what he's said. As for Lammy, do you really want a biased , against the white majority, Foreign. Secretary.
No I don't like Sunak either. The party elite chose a globalist opportunist instead of a real Tory.

Iam64 Sat 23-Sep-23 16:58:31

Freya5, no you aren’t ‘sorry’ for believing I’m wrong. I’ve no problem with disagreements but I do have a problem with false apologies.

Dinahmo Sat 23-Sep-23 17:11:37

maddyone

It’s not my fault DAR, it’s the fault of the politicians. Please refrain from being so condescending and rude about me.

Sorry but it is our fault, at least partly because we voted for this politicians. Unfortunately some people believed the lies or were blinded by Johnson's supposed charisma.

Dinahmo Sat 23-Sep-23 17:17:43

nanna8

The thing is, if you think the opposition will be any better you are most likely in for a sad disillusionment. We think that every time the government changes side. Never happens. Just gets worse and worse.

But it didn't get worse when Blair became PM. Many things improved and much of the improvement has been eroded by the Tories.