Charitable status and private schools

People on both sides of the discussion on this thread are promulgating their own views, rather than what Labour are saying they might do if elected. Dismantling the private education sector does not figure in their plans, to be clear.

We can’t allow anyone to be better off than the next person can we, even if their parents have worked themselves into an early grave to give them some perceived advantage.

I have already said that I had a state education in the days of the eleven plus and grammar schools. My son also had a state education in the days of comprehensives. Most of our professional peers went to independent schools. We have not been disadvantaged in any way. Nevertheless I believe in a parent’s right to choose independent education if they can afford to, and despise a political party which wants to make that choice even more difficult, even impossible, for them if they are ordinary working people. It will make little or no difference to rich parents.

Was it my post of 03-Oct-23 09:55:53 you were hammering GSM?

Are you really saying I may not post it on this thread?

ronib

Conservative DAR

That could be interesting

Yes this is a thread about some Labour Party thinking GSM However, it's bound to include our thinking as we are replying to it.

I, personally, I'm happy that they will use the VAT to improve States schools. We do generally pay tax on transactions, so I don't see that as a problem.

I have argued that choice should remain, against the hard-left culture warriors, on this forum for years. I haven't said anything different in this thread.

I don't understand what your gripe is.

Germanshepherdsmum

How would removing the opportunity to send children to independent schools change any of that DAR? This thread is about Labour’s plans for private schools and my comment which you have picked up was solely about state education. Any attempts to remove people’s choice to send their children to independent schools if they so wish are nothing to do with having ‘a fairer society’. It’s a case of ‘if I can’t afford it I’ll make sure you can’t have it’.

If every child born in this country had an equal choice to every other child of having the best education possible then it wouldn’t matter. But while some people can send their children to schools where there will be smaller class sizes and more individual attention paid to them there will be no desire to improve state schools. Especially as the government is run by a majority of people that are the result of a private/public school education. I bet teachers in private schools don’t have to be a combination of teacher and social worker. Or find themselves under resourced. If a catchment area has two schools, one state and one fee paying, why would some parents choose to pay for their child to have the same education as a child at the state school if it wasn’t for the fact that the child at the fee paying school has a far better chance of doing well.

Germanshepherdsmum your post of 10.08 is spot on in my opinion.

Improving the state system should not mean taking away the choice of patents to send their children to a fee paying school.

Will there be a knock on effect to restrict the use of private tutoring?

Any attempts to remove people’s choice to send their children to independent schools if they so wish are nothing to do with having ‘a fairer society’. It’s a case of ‘if I can’t afford it I’ll make sure you can’t have it’.

Don't be silly, GSM. It's just an attempt to level the playing field a teeny bit.

I think it would be much better to invest more in state education to bring educational standards in state schools more into line with private schools. Then perhaps people wouldn't have to scrimp and save to send their children private because the local state school is dire.

Then we would know that those who opt for private education are just attempting to buy privilege for their children. Which doesn't seem particularly laudable to me.

Conservative DAR

ronib

I am in a marginal constituency DAR .

Thank you ronib If you don't mind telling me, how did it vote last time?

GrannyGravy13

The Government of the day regardless of its colour can improve state school standards whilst leaving fee paying schools alone.

And only culture warriors see any point in wiping out small numbers of schools before improving the ones the majority have to attend.

How would removing the opportunity to send children to independent schools change any of that DAR? This thread is about Labour’s plans for private schools and my comment which you have picked up was solely about state education. Any attempts to remove people’s choice to send their children to independent schools if they so wish are nothing to do with having ‘a fairer society’. It’s a case of ‘if I can’t afford it I’ll make sure you can’t have it’.

I am in a marginal constituency DAR .

ronib

Well Labour just lost my vote.

Why? And does it matter in your constituency? You really are "just a number" under FPTP, you know. We all are.

I don't think people expect "Utopia" GSM. They simply want us to do our best for everyone. Some just want "a fairer society" and some are beginning to see that, poor health, lack of lifetime learning oportunity, lack of homes and enough to live on, affect the whole of society.

In other words running a country the way we are affects us all negatively and even the comfortable Conservative will eventually realise this. Too late of course but hopefully others will have done something about it.

Casdon

ronib

Well Labour just lost my vote.

No manifesto will ever totally accord with any voter, and people will weigh up all the good and bad (for them) elements of each party’s proposals. This isn’t going to be the bomb that sinks Labour, it’s just not important enough to enough people compared with other issues.

I totally agree that this is small fry for most of the electorate.

For me it is on the slippery slope of gradual elimination of choice for parents regarding their children’s education.

Will Labour go after Private Healthcare next?

ronib

Well Labour just lost my vote.

No manifesto will ever totally accord with any voter, and people will weigh up all the good and bad (for them) elements of each party’s proposals. This isn’t going to be the bomb that sinks Labour, it’s just not important enough to enough people compared with other issues.

I'm not saying it was or wasn't but why do you see Tony Blair winning an election on Education, Education, Education as a disaster, dizzygran? Just saying it doesn't make it so. Could you explain?

I couldn’t vote for a party that had this in its manifesto.

ronib

Well Labour just lost my vote.

You, and potentially 2 million other voters on this one.

Well Labour just lost my vote.

It’s not an economic argument it’s idealogical, those that feel strongly about abolishing private schools are going to vote Labour or Liberal anyway. So there is no money to be had, no votes to win, and many other policies that are much more important.

I think Keir Starmer might just be underestimating the reactions of x's parents. Instead of withdrawing their child fron private school, the parents might .....
Reconsider the house move they were planning
Put on hold that new kitchen or bathroom, or building extension
Forgo holidays
Eat out less, buy fewer treats etc.
ie. spend far less on things which would normally boost the economy.
The big thing in all this is that once x and his parents have had a taste of the private sector, they will be very reluctant to let it go.
We just can't predict anything, and in my experience, an emotional reaction might well override the perhaps more sensible decision to transfer x into the state system.

penny hapenny Keir Starmer has suggested that when parents take their children out of private schools, they free up the funds to spend in the wider economy so money is circulated around.
That’s making quite a few assumptions about spending patterns which have no basis in reality. But why am I not surprised?
Seems to me that freedom is going to be reduced even further under Keir so that parents and families are simply providing VAT income in a very over taxed economy/society.

"In 2022–23, average private school fees across the UK were £15,200 in today’s prices (net of bursaries and scholarships). This is £7,200 or nearly 90% higher than state school spending per pupil, which was £8,000 in 2022–23 (including day-to-day and capital spending). The gap between private school fees and state school spending per pupil has more than doubled since 2010, when the gap was about 40% or £3,500."

Please correct my maths if I'm wrong...
x goes to private school and their parents pay £15,200 per year. x's parents save the taxpayer £8000 per year for state education.
Labour put VAT on private school fees and x's parents can no longer afford to pay the fees. x now has to go to a state school at a cost to the taxpayer of £8000 per year. The treasury will not be in receipt of any VAT payments from x's parents.
Extra cost to the taxpayer £8000.
In addition, private schools PAY VAT on all the goods and services they buy. IT equipment, new buildings, educational supplies. So if they have to close, the exchequer will not be receiving this money either.
The vast majority of private schools are not like Eton, Harrow, Westminster etc. They are not elitist and provide excellent education with pupils leaving to become badly needed doctors, engineers, lawyers etc. I could go on, but believe me, most are brilliant schools and many parents make substantial sacrifices so that their children can attend.