Charitable status and private schools

Most independent schools setting up don't apply for charitable status, and most of those who have it wouldn't be over bothered to lose it. It really isn't such a big deal. Maybe Keir Srarmer realised this.

No one wants to “penalise” private education or indeed private healthcare, people in a democracy should always have the choice, and attending an independent school doesn’t always mean a “better” education or more qualified teachers, same as paying for price healthcare doesn’t give you access to better consultants, but independent schools certainly shouldn’t have charitable status, they are not charities !

I have a GC who attended state primary, a school highly regarded. The parents were constantly battling about lack of support on bullying; why results were poor having pointed out to school his lack of concentration at home; his lack of interest in joining in at school and suggested an assessment on ADHD. School turned whole situation around on the parents asking what was going on at home, it could be whatever that was that was causing problems at school!!! As a family we had enough and we all agreed to contribute to cost of private schooling. At secondary, school immediately spotted issues and have applied for assessment of possible learning difficulties. They have put in place small tactics to help GC cope and results are sky high. GC hapoy at school, has been on a 4 day trip with no issues. Anyone who considers penalising private education should take a long hard look at the general group of people using these schools and why. Not all private schools are Eton.

LizzieDrip

*But I would also hate what Neo-Communism (a creep towards totalitarianism) could do to us should they take over Labour*

I doubt that would happen DaisyAnne, particularly under Starmer and his Cabinet, although I do respect your point. For many, the current Labour Party is far too centrist. Of course, for me they’re not left enough - but that’s just me!

It's not just you LizzieDrip - I find that I'm moving further Left as I age, and I despair at the pernicious poison that has spread throughout society over the last 50 years..! 😓

Nationalising the assets of independent schools? Outlawing private medical care? What next Grantanow? Would you like to live in a country which did that sort of thing?

Grantanow - public schools already have made contingency plans and own land abroad and have set up schools all over the world. The Uk government can’t stop schools relocating in reality.

Dream on - you really are very innocent…..

Of course all schools should be excellent but sadly they're just not. Wishing away private schools won't help the situation

Sorry if this upsets people, and it’s just my opinion, I have experience of both state and private schools, older son attended a very lovely prep school and went into a state grammar, we were very much the poor relations at his prep school but he was bright and won a partial scholarship. Went into have three more children in a different relationship, couldn’t afford to send these three to the same prep school so they went to a local large primary school with many different nationalities and with some pupils coming from deprived backgrounds. I was concerned so became a school governor at this school to help understand how things worked for the whole time they attended this school, and chair of the PTA for two years to help raise much needed school funds. A big resounding NO, Independent schools should not have charitable status, it’s entirely parents choice to pay to have their children educated privately and fees should more than cover the schools expenses ! No school could ever be called “crap” it’s insulting to both pupils and staff. Schools should all be funded properly and give all it’s pupils the gift of high quality education, opportunities and aspiration.

It's nonsense to suggest the public/private schools can't be abolished on the grounds they have contingency plans to relocate abroad. Their assets could be nationalized so they could not be transferred abroad.

I sympathise with those who simply want every child to have the best education but while the private sector continues to enjoy massive financial privilege the state system will be deprived of funds. We don't hear much about dilapidated public schools or a RAAC problem there. All that Keegan can come up with is banning mobile phones in state schools while the sector is underfunded.

Comparing private education with other aspects of the mixed economy is interesting. There might be a good case for outlawing private medical care (which leeches off the NHS) and for bringing social care into the NHS to remove the profit element which directs funds out of patient care, just as the water companies pay out vast dividends to shareholders while failing to deal with sewage outflows.

Well said Freya5

My youngest had a pretty outgoing personality and won a scholarship to a very prestigious school. She had a large group of friends who she influenced to wear ‘grungy’ op shop clothes. I was delighted, needless to say. The education they gave her was superb, the best of the lot and she really fitted in. We couldn’t have afforded their fees in normal circumstances. The thing with a lot of private schools is they tend to instil self confidence which is very valuable. By contrast, the state school ,which was not a bad school by any means, seemed to focus on negatives and half the time they didn’t even know who their pupils were.

ronib

Why not wear secondhand? It is more fashionable to have a sustainable lifestyle than a fad consumer approach - good values are part of education too.
What are the right trainers these days?

It depends upon the confidence of the children. A friend in Suffolk kitted out the whole family from the Saturday morning Salvation Army clothes sales. They were very good because they regularly received clothes and accessories from people returning to America from the local base. By good I mean Dior, YSL and so on. Her children went to the local private school and had no problem with wearing what we now call pre loved clothes. I don't know whether she bought 2nd hand school uniforms for them.

Thanks MaizieD for your explanation - quite interesting and a very complex topic …. a further twist on sources of social inequality.
Academies are state funded schools with exempt charitable status I believe. Don’t ask me how or why.

ronib

What counts as a pupil’s outcome - winning a place at Oxbridge or Russell Group? In which case, a certain group of highly selective schools do have a high percentage of students accepted by Oxbridge colleges.
Also academy schools exist in addition to comprehensive, grammar and sixth form colleges. Don’t academies also have charitable status?

OK. The report looked at academic outcomes at the end of KS4 (GCSR O level).

They took children with similar attainment levels at the end of KS2 and tracked them through to end KS4. Their conclusions were broadly that there was no difference between the attainment of pupils in selective schools and those in comprehensives. They did find, though, that the pupils of similar attainment at the end of KS2 in selective areas, who had failed to get into a selective school, had poorer attainment at end KS4 than pupils in nonselective areas.

Yes, it's a bit of a mind numbing read, but if you find the bit where they explain the criteria for choosing the children to be tracked and then go to the Conclusion it tells you what you want to know.

Of course, if you are familiar with the types of research methodologies used and are in a position to critique them then you have to read the bit in the middle...

Academies don't have charitable status as far as I'm aware. They were just given more money and independence from LA control. They're still state funded schools.

Local authorities and academy chains may call schools 'comprehensive' but they are not true comprehensives if some pupils are selected out. They call them comprehensives for 2 reasons:
1. they then don't have top use the term 'secondary modern'
2. it helps to discredit the comprehensive ideal

There are debates to be had, but they are not helped by sloppy terminology.

I am fortunate to have had children who went to true comprehensives in a non-selective system.

Callistemon21

Nannarose

If there were more grammar schools, it may be that there would be fewer pupils in independent schools. However, there would be many pupils failed, as there were back when most local authorities had selective systems.
Anytime I hear that there should be more grammar schools, I ask (if appropriate) if the person would like to see more secondary moderns. I rarely hear 'yes'. I occasionally hear 'well if they fail the 11+ they can go to comprehensives'. I am usually too kind to point out that their own education must be lacking if they think that is logical!!

No, there are grammar schools in some areas alongside comprehensive schools.

And, even if a child does pass the 11+ they can still opt to go to a comprehensive school.

Nannarose

If there were more grammar schools, it may be that there would be fewer pupils in independent schools. However, there would be many pupils failed, as there were back when most local authorities had selective systems.
Anytime I hear that there should be more grammar schools, I ask (if appropriate) if the person would like to see more secondary moderns. I rarely hear 'yes'. I occasionally hear 'well if they fail the 11+ they can go to comprehensives'. I am usually too kind to point out that their own education must be lacking if they think that is logical!!

No, there are grammar schools in some areas alongside comprehensive schools.

ronib

What counts as a pupil’s outcome - winning a place at Oxbridge or Russell Group? In which case, a certain group of highly selective schools do have a high percentage of students accepted by Oxbridge colleges.
Also academy schools exist in addition to comprehensive, grammar and sixth form colleges. Don’t academies also have charitable status?

What counts as a pupil’s outcome - winning a place at Oxbridge or Russell Group?

Unless someone inherits wealth, I would think the best outcome is getting a job and being able to support yourself through life.

Casdon

MaizieD

Have you not read the research I just posted, Nannarose?

Selective schools make no difference to pupil's outcomes.

Do Secondary Moderns still exist? I though it was just Comprehensives now.

I don’t think that academic outcome is the benefit for pupils of attending private schools though, or even why parents select private education MaizieD. What they confer is social and work related advantage - it’s not what you know, it’s who you know.

I was responding to assertion that Grammar schools are wonderful things. They mostly were, in their day, but they don't have much place in the system now and, as the report points out, their pupil's outcomes are no better than those of comprehensive educated pupils.

I know the research report had nothing to do with the private sector. But the thread was getting derailed...

Why would you start your reporting of a "fact" with some might argue Callistemon. A fact is provable and only needs to be stated. You have no idea if his education "biased" his opinion or not. So his bias (which is what matters) is unproven, i.e., not a "fact".

If you listened to what Marr says, Starner's position because of his education, vis a vis his siblings, could well have given him very strong views on education opportunities for all.

Labour decided to make the change because:

*The major tax raiser is from adding VAT to school fees.
*Removing charitable status is difficult and time consuming.
* Labour are not abandoning removal of charitable status, just being pragmatic about what they do immediately.

As I said, Starmer has every reason to believe in giving everyone opportunities, but rather than spending time on everlasting philosophical discussions I see him as someone who may actually get things done.

GrannyGravy13

Casdon maybe networking take place at the likes of Eton, Rugby, Roedean etc., but not at the average small local fee paying school.

There’s evidence that it does, although small local private schools are less likely to have the connected parents, and don’t perhaps imbue their pupils will the same level of self belief. Here’s an interesting study by the Institute of Fiscal Studies.
ifs.org.uk/inequality/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Private-schools-and-inequality.pdf

Callistemon21

If schools retain charitable status under Labour's plans (U turn) does that mean they would be able to reclaim any proposed VAT anyway or pay a reduced rate on goods and services?

Sorry Callistemon21, unfortunately I'm not an expert figures person on how all private schools are run, (well, not an expert figures person at anything really other than budgeting for my own wardrobe!), but I do know that independent schools are carrying out VAT input projections for things they purchase with the intention of seeing how they would be able to claw back 4% - 5% from refunds. This would mean that in all likelihood schools would put up their fees around 15% and not the scarier 20% figure. (Every little helps!) I do think schools will need to be transparent on the figures with parents.
Interestingly, one loophole would be to offer parents the option of paying, say, 5 years' fees in advance before the legislation kicks in. You might be surprised how many parents have a spare £100k lying around!! 💸 💸

Casdon maybe networking take place at the likes of Eton, Rugby, Roedean etc., but not at the average small local fee paying school.

MaizieD

Have you not read the research I just posted, Nannarose?

Selective schools make no difference to pupil's outcomes.

Do Secondary Moderns still exist? I though it was just Comprehensives now.

I don’t think that academic outcome is the benefit for pupils of attending private schools though, or even why parents select private education MaizieD. What they confer is social and work related advantage - it’s not what you know, it’s who you know.

MaizieD I tried to read the article and found my eyes glazing over …. I rather hoped you could say since you presumably did read it.
Lots of people report negatively on early education……