Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

It was common practice to examine women athletes to determine sex, and could be done for any number of reasons, another athlete complained, the timings were questioned because they were records. The actual examination of women was completely and absolutely intrusive and would today probably be described as assault.
But if you are interested in her the details are here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
There is absolutely no doubt that she was cleared to compete in women's athletics until the testosterone level was introduced.
So in spite of all the accusations on here she was classified as female and took part in women's athletics.

As for criticising the clothes she wore as a child and the activities she took part in, that really is a bit much. I thought we didn't designate gender from appearances?

And all any of these discussions show is that the statement a "Man is a man and a woman is a woman" is neither as true nor as simple as some have stated. Because on this thread someone who was designated a woman at birth, has been criticised for her choices as a child, designated a man because of her chromosomes and called by the non-binary term "they". So evidently nothing is really straight forward.

It also goes to show that the condemnation is not entirely concerned with trans issues, but that trans issues are simply a way of expressing discriminatory views in a way which could be regarded as acceptable. That actually it isn't about rights, it is about trying to villify and "other" anyone who doesn't conform to certain set ideas.

As for criticising the clothes she wore as a child and the activities she took part in, that really is a bit much. I thought we didn't designate gender from appearances? that's rich coming from someone who said CS had 'lived as a woman' but won't say what exactly that involves. I pointed out that CS had always been more comfortable with males, preferring traditional male dress and occupations. I also said Now I don't think that's what makes CS a man, so I wasn't designating CS as anything from that. Are you using gender as 'presentation' or sex, it's so hard to tell as you have used it in both senses at times? CS is genetically male, has a condition that only affects males, that is what makes CS a man.

Glorianny, You brought CS into this, as you so often do, as a way of tripping people up. You said she ‘lived as a woman’, refused to say what that meant, then had a dig at Rosie for commenting about it. You then take that jibe (that ‘we’ don’t designate gender by appearance) as the premise for another jibe - that people are ‘vilifying’ and ‘othering’.

What is it about CS’s early life that leads you to decree that she ‘lived as a woman’ as you claim? I have no idea, but as you brought CS up again, and as you mentioned her early life, I assume that you have an opinion?

Also, you have repeated that testing is intrusive, but not said what reason was given by the sporting authorities when they decided CS’s case. What was it?

Rosie51

^As for criticising the clothes she wore as a child and the activities she took part in, that really is a bit much. I thought we didn't designate gender from appearances?^ that's rich coming from someone who said CS had 'lived as a woman' but won't say what exactly that involves. I pointed out that CS had always been more comfortable with males, preferring traditional male dress and occupations. I also said Now I don't think that's what makes CS a man, so I wasn't designating CS as anything from that. Are you using gender as 'presentation' or sex, it's so hard to tell as you have used it in both senses at times? CS is genetically male, has a condition that only affects males, that is what makes CS a man.

There you have it- because I know her chromosomes she is a man. I've decided. At birth no one tests your chromosomes. You are designated by your genitalia. She was designated a woman, but apparently that is wrong.
She preferred male pastimes so she can't be a woman
How judgemental can you get?

Glorianny As you continue to deliberately twist my words and misrepresent me, I conclude that you are unable to justify any of your claims, including the one that high ranking athletes don't menstruate. Well you're half right, none of the men do!
Incidentally, it's biology that decided CS is male, nothing to do with me at all. You know that deep down, but it doesn't fit your agenda to admit it.

Doodledog

*Glorianny*, You brought CS into this, as you so often do, as a way of tripping people up. You said she ‘lived as a woman’, refused to say what that meant, then had a dig at Rosie for commenting about it. You then take that jibe (that ‘we’ don’t designate gender by appearance) as the premise for another jibe - that people are ‘vilifying’ and ‘othering’.

What is it about CS’s early life that leads you to decree that she ‘lived as a woman’ as you claim? I have no idea, but as you brought CS up again, and as you mentioned her early life, I assume that you have an opinion?

Also, you have repeated that testing is intrusive, but not said what reason was given by the sporting authorities when they decided CS’s case. What was it?

I'm not "tripping people up" I'm pointing out holes in the idea proposed by Sunak and applauded by many that you can say Men are men and women are women, If there were no holes no one could be "tripped up" as you put it.
CS entered women's athletic events, would therefore have used women's changing rooms and toilets and occupied the women's quarters on residential events. She was designated female at birth.

But you have referred to her as "they" without consideration of the fact that she is still participating in events as a woman, so obviously chooses to identify with the female decision made at her birth.

The decisions of the Athletics ruling body are never made public only the results are available. She was permitted to continue competing as a woman

It is vilifying and othering a person to not respect their views and to insist they must be something they have consistently insisted they are not. CS is a woman, she has always, and still does compete as a woman.

Men are men and women are women and no amount of dragging in diversions will change that, Glorianny.

If you were competing against and lost your medal because of CS or other males, IMO you would undoubtedly have hunted all the information now available about CS

I’m glad you or your family have not been not been in a position where you have been negatively affected by males lying that they are ‘women’ which you still seem to endorse by supporting all TW.
I have.

CS may compete as a woman. She may live as a woman, identify as a woman - she's entitled to do that.

Genetically, she is male.

But you have referred to her as "they" without consideration of the fact that she is still participating in events as a woman, so obviously chooses to identify with the female decision made at her birth.
Have I? I’d be surprised if so, as it’s not a term I normally use to describe someone identifiable in the singular - I use their name or their sex-based pronoun.

The latest ‘thing’ on here seems to be to expect people to remember every comment they’ve made and everything they are responding to word for word, and accusing them of misrepresenting or even lying if they get it slightly wrong, so if I have said it, maybe it was out of politeness. I’m not falling into the trap of having to scrutinise every post I’ve made before posting. I suspect that you have mistaken me for someone else though.

I keep saying that I don’t follow athletics and I know little about the case, but you keep suggesting that I am ‘othering’ or ‘vilifying’ CS - I’m not. I asked what it is about her life that brought you to post that she ‘had always lived as a woman’ - is the fact that she used women’s facilities the basis on which you said that? It’s a bit chicken and egg if so. If I used male changing rooms would that mean I was ‘living as a man’, and would that, in turn, mean that I had become one? For how long would I have had to have used them for it to mean that I had ‘always’ lived as a man? It’s a mystery to me, as it is not biologically possible to change sex.

Doodledog

*But you have referred to her as "they" without consideration of the fact that she is still participating in events as a woman, so obviously chooses to identify with the female decision made at her birth.*
Have I? I’d be surprised if so, as it’s not a term I normally use to describe someone identifiable in the singular - I use their name or their sex-based pronoun.

The latest ‘thing’ on here seems to be to expect people to remember every comment they’ve made and everything they are responding to word for word, and accusing them of misrepresenting or even lying if they get it slightly wrong, so if I have said it, maybe it was out of politeness. I’m not falling into the trap of having to scrutinise every post I’ve made before posting. I suspect that you have mistaken me for someone else though.

I keep saying that I don’t follow athletics and I know little about the case, but you keep suggesting that I am ‘othering’ or ‘vilifying’ CS - I’m not. I asked what it is about her life that brought you to post that she ‘had always lived as a woman’ - is the fact that she used women’s facilities the basis on which you said that? It’s a bit chicken and egg if so. If I used male changing rooms would that mean I was ‘living as a man’, and would that, in turn, mean that I had become one? For how long would I have had to have used them for it to mean that I had ‘always’ lived as a man? It’s a mystery to me, as it is not biologically possible to change sex.

I apologise*Doodledog*it was Galaxywho called her"they".

I really don't see why I am expected to present proof of how CS lived her life . She was designated female at birth. I wasn't there, but I assume those present used the evidence they saw. Regardless of how she lived otherwise, she was accepted in women's athletics as a woman after numerous tests, until testosterone levels were introduced. She is one of many black women athletes who have been treated in similar ways. There is no doubt that African and Eastern countries regard this as racism.
But the fact remains Sunak's statement is patently rubbish

I really don't see why I am expected to present proof of how CS lived her life.

Just because you confidently asserted that she had, and expected us to answer based on that assertion. Given that I for one had already stated that I know little about it, it seems reasonable to assume that you would post facts, rather than guesses. Even if you don’t have proof, which is fair enough, some idea of why you stated that CS has always lived as a woman (and presented it as fact) would have helped.

Is it only black women who are tested for sex differences?

With functioning testes Caster Semenya went through a male puberty with its physical advantages, and naturally produces testosterone within the normal male range. It is very sad for Caster, but why should females be beaten by a male body? The other banned athletes most probably have the same DSD as Caster, it's not racism it's biology. Testosterone was the drug Russia and East Germany administered to their female athletes to enable them to dominate events for years. Higher levels of testosterone give an unfair advantage.
Nowadays there don't have to be invasive tests to determine the sex of athletes, a cheek swab is sufficient. It's worth noting that those genetically male athletes raised as female who have AIS do compete as women because being insensitive to testosterone they do not go through a male puberty or produce high levels of the hormone and therefore do not have an unfair advantage.

Rosie 51
Thanks for that added information about simpler non-invasive tests and the AIS raised as females with insensitivity to testosterone.
I’d be interested to know if anyone supporting CS, or the TW cheating in female sport, would have supported the testosterone enhancing policies of Russia and East Germany which enabled their athletes to win. Or do they believe it’s only TW who are allowed to cheat?

Yes, this is a very different picture from that of a woman who had ‘lived as’ such all her life suddenly being denied the right to compete because she seemed too masculine, isn’t it? If she believed she was female and had been raised as such with a view to entering her into the women’s races then I feel very sad for her. She must be confused and psychologically ‘homeless’.

But that doesn’t mean that women should have to lose out to her, after they too have trained and worked towards competition at the highest levels. These things have to be fair to all.

So now people on this thread think they have more knowledge than the IAAF which performed a number of tests on CS and cleared her to participate as a woman. She is still permitted to participate in some events, the testosterone test is only used for certain distances.

The levels of testosterone in high level athletes have been shown to have overlapping levels in men and women, some men having very low levels and some women higher levels.

The absolute racism implying that this was some sort of planned action by an African sports woman in order to cheat is disgusting.

Glorianny
The absolute racism implying that this was some sort of planned action by an African sports woman in order to cheat is disgusting.

Well you made this accusation here.
I might have missed it before, but you are the first person who TMK has said it.
Actually the support for any males competing in female sports or claiming to be women is disgusting.

If she believed she was female and had been raised as such with a view to entering her into the women’s races then I feel very sad for her
There's the racism
She was designated female at birth
The IAAF tested her many times and allowed her to participate in women's events.
If she agreed to take HRT, which she has said makes her ill, to lower her testosterone level she would still be participating in the women's events she has been banned from.
But she is designated a cheat by people on this thread.

Glorianny

^If she believed she was female and had been raised as such with a view to entering her into the women’s races then I feel very sad for her^
There's the racism
She was designated female at birth
The IAAF tested her many times and allowed her to participate in women's events.
If she agreed to take HRT, which she has said makes her ill, to lower her testosterone level she would still be participating in the women's events she has been banned from.
But she is designated a cheat by people on this thread.

In what way is the comment racist?

Dickens
In what way is the comment racist?
Because Glorianny sats so. She always brings racism into threads about sex being male or female.

Glorianny

^If she believed she was female and had been raised as such with a view to entering her into the women’s races then I feel very sad for her^
There's the racism
She was designated female at birth
The IAAF tested her many times and allowed her to participate in women's events.
If she agreed to take HRT, which she has said makes her ill, to lower her testosterone level she would still be participating in the women's events she has been banned from.
But she is designated a cheat by people on this thread.

Well you and I differ on what constitutes racism and sexism. I don't see being non-racist as never criticising a person of colour, any more than I see feminism as never disagreeing with a woman.

You routinely accuse posters of not being feminist or 'supportive of women' if we criticise one woman, and this is not the first time you have been very offensive to me when I have suggested that an African athlete may have deliberately cheated, or may have been manipulated into doing so.

I find accusations of racism extremely offensive, and would like you to withdraw that, please. It is in fact your assumption that I said what I did because she is African that is racist. It never crossed my mind. I would feel exactly the same if the family (or her trainers - as I keep saying, I do not know the case) were British, Italian, Chinese or anything else.

I said that if she had been manipulated into believing she is female then I would feel sorry for her. I did not say that she had been, and I certainly didn't say anything about her race, or anything to suggest that her race had anything to do with any of this - that all came from you.

Please explain what is racist about what I said, before I report the post for defamation.

Mollygo

Dickens
In what way is the comment racist?
Because Glorianny sats so. She always brings racism into threads about sex being male or female.

It's an absurd accusation.

I can't see the logic in it, at all.

Glorianny Where is the racism?

Can anyone see racism in my post? I was talking about someone with male characteristics competing as a woman - her race has nothing to do with it as far as I am concerned.

This has happened before when CS was dragged into a thread - then I was accused of being akin to the KKK because I suggested that however unfortunate a DSD may be for one individual, allowing all the female athletes racing against that individual to suffer is unacceptable. The KKK!!

That comment was subsequently withdrawn, but now the same poster is accusing me of racism for posting the same sentiment.

CS’s race is irrelevant now as it was then. It is not I who brought it up (in either case), but the person accusing me of being racist. Disgraceful behaviour.

Agree Doodledog 👍

Doodledog I can’t see the racism because it isn’t there.
Maybe Glorianny will pop back in a minute to explain or apologise. . . or maybe not.