Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

It isn't anything to do with trans matters simply a question of a single statement which is either true or not true.
Sorry, you've lost me there. What isn't anything to do with trans matters, and what is a single statement?

I've asked the question what are the women athletes who are not permitted to take part in women's athletics?
I am absolutely not an expert in this area, so I'm not sure how I'm supposed to answer, but it seems to me that they are also being used. I assume you know the answer, as you often bring this up - what is the reason given by the adjudicators in sport who have arrived at this conclusion?

If the authorities in sport have determined that to enter into a female category a contestant must have above a certain amount of oestrogen, and below a certain amount of testosterone, or that they must have been female at puberty (or whatever the parameters are) then someone who does not fit that category is ineligible to compete. It's unfortunate, but I would also be ineligible because of physical characteristics - in my case not hormones or chromosomal characteristics, but because I am not fit enough, because my breathing is not strong enough, because my legs aren't long enough, my muscles are not well enough developed etc. Only a small percentage of the population would qualify to compete, so I don't see that as unfair, or as discrimination - there have to be rules to make the competition fair to all competitors.

4 black women athletes banned from Olympic events because of naturally high ;levels of testosterone www.insider.com/intersex-olympic-athletes-barred-from-competing-in-preferred-olympic-event-2021-7

2 Namibian athletes banned fo the same reason www.axios.com/2021/07/03/namibia-disqualified-naturally-high-testosterone-olympic

An Indian athlete also banned www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/08/sprinter-dutee-chand-appeals-ban-failing-gender-test#:~:text=The%20teenage%20Indian%20sprinter%20Dutee,a%20controversial%20%E2%80%9Cgender%20test%E2%80%9D

Yes, I get it - you've posted this before. Are you suggesting that racism is at play? I don't know what to say - I am not a sports fan, so don't follow athletics - surely the same restrictions apply to athletes of all races and nationalities?

Can you see what I am getting at though? Posting links to confirm that these biological differences exist doesn't engage with my point at all. All competitive sport is about physical limitations and stretching the parameters of what the human body can do. It is, therefore important that competitors are evenly matched. Boxing does it by weight, horse racing jockeys are usually small and slight, even school sports days differentiate by age and sometimes sex. Why is it wrong to do the same in athletics?

Caster Semenya has a condition 5α-Reductase deficiency.

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (5αR2D) is an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation in SRD5A2, a gene encoding the enzyme 5α-reductase type 2 (5αR2). The condition is rare, affects only genetic males, and has a broad spectrum.

I imagine the other banned athletes also exhibit DSDs that only affect genetic males.

Glorianny

So what does he want people to do? Demand to see evidence of someone's sex before admitting them? I must say at all the events I have attended to celebrate and promote women's causes no one has ever asked to see proof I am a woman and I hope they never do.
Be very careful the far right have set out their agenda- pick off the obvious first-trans people- then work on the rest. Only the hetero-normal family will be permitted. It's happening in Europe irr.org.uk/article/feminism-biological-fundamentalism-attack-on-trans-rights/

Totally Agree! If people think things are this simple then we are heading to a very dangerous place! It frightens me what the far right are doing to the world at the moment.

I don’t understand why you’re so desperate for people to have to show their genitalia Glorianny. You always bring this up, usually to accompany your claims that you can’t tell the difference.
Maybe you can’t, but that doesn’t make it true. It’s definitely not true of the TW (males) who enter female toilets, changing rooms etc and demonstrate that they are men.

And once again we come back to honesty.
Are you claiming that it’s OK for men to be dishonest about their sex, by words or actions, whether anyone knows or not?

I don’t understand this endorsement of lying, as long as it’s men or in particular TW who are doing the lying, whilst at the same time condemning members of the Tory party for lying.

How do you decide which lies to accept?

I'm glad he said it. Glad ANYONE is saying it. Some kind of right wing plot? I think the relentless pushing of the whole trans thing is more likely to be a 'plot' - or at least have a hidden agenda.

Rosie51

Caster Semenya has a condition 5α-Reductase deficiency.

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (5αR2D) is an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation in SRD5A2, a gene encoding the enzyme 5α-reductase type 2 (5αR2). The condition is rare, affects only genetic males, and has a broad spectrum.

I imagine the other banned athletes also exhibit DSDs that only affect genetic males.

But they are women Rosie51! And Men are men and women are women, or are you saying these women are men?
That's a bit harsh being as they have all always lived as women.

Women are women and men are men. TW are never women.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Caster Semenya has a condition 5α-Reductase deficiency.

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (5αR2D) is an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation in SRD5A2, a gene encoding the enzyme 5α-reductase type 2 (5αR2). The condition is rare, affects only genetic males, and has a broad spectrum.

I imagine the other banned athletes also exhibit DSDs that only affect genetic males.

But they are women Rosie51! And Men are men and women are women, or are you saying these women are men?
That's a bit harsh being as they have all always lived as women.

There is doubt that Caster Semenya has always lived as female, there are photos of Caster in the boy's school uniform. Regardless what does living as a woman mean?
Sports are divided by many categories, but the most common is males in one category, females in the other. You may regard Caster as a woman, but you can't deny biology and Caster is genetically male. Therefore Caster can race in the sex appropriate category, and won't be expected to suppress testosterone.

If, as Rosie's quote suggests, CS's DSD affects only genetic males, then CS is a male, surely? What does 'living as a woman' mean? Is it the same in South Africa as in the UK?

Rosie51

Caster Semenya has a condition 5α-Reductase deficiency.

5α-Reductase 2 deficiency (5αR2D) is an autosomal recessive condition caused by a mutation in SRD5A2, a gene encoding the enzyme 5α-reductase type 2 (5αR2). The condition is rare, affects only genetic males, and has a broad spectrum.

I imagine the other banned athletes also exhibit DSDs that only affect genetic males.

Semenya is an intersex woman,[8] with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency,[9] assigned female at birth,[10] with XY chromosomes and natural heterogametic testosterone levels

She was assigned female at birth, because of course no one looks at a baby's chromosomes.
She was subjected to numerous tests when she was an athlete and was permitted to compete in women's athletics until new rules were brought in about testosterone levels

But of course Sunak says "Men are men and women are women" Only it isn't true is it?

Yes. It is true. If CS has a condition that is only present in males then by definition CS is male.

Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative, but logically it appears to be the case.

Glorianny do you have one iota of sympathy or concern for the females who lost places and medals to a genetically male athlete? I care that they dedicated their lives to training to achieve their goals only to be beaten by an athlete with the advantage of having gone through a male puberty. Did anyone express concern about Caster never having had a period? Surely that was investigated? My friend who was born without ovaries caused concern when she hadn't started menstruating by 16.

Glorianny
But of course Sunak says "Men are men and women are women" Only it isn't true is it?
Yes it’s true, however much you don’t want it to be.

Rosie51

Glorianny do you have one iota of sympathy or concern for the females who lost places and medals to a genetically male athlete? I care that they dedicated their lives to training to achieve their goals only to be beaten by an athlete with the advantage of having gone through a male puberty. Did anyone express concern about Caster never having had a period? Surely that was investigated? My friend who was born without ovaries caused concern when she hadn't started menstruating by 16.

High level female athletes seldom menstruate its one of the results of intense training.
We're discussing "Men are men and women are women"

Doodledog

Yes. It is true. If CS has a condition that is only present in males then by definition CS is male.

Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative, but logically it appears to be the case.

She would be assigned female at birth because she has female genitalia. She has always lived as a woman. She was examined several times when she was competing.

So what you seem to be saying is someone with female genitalia can be designated male because of chromosomes. How does that agree with "Men are men and women are women"?

Which they are.

On what grounds are you suggesting that CS is, in fact, female?

Glorianny
* High level female athletes seldom menstruate its one of the results of intense training.*
We're discussing "Men are men and women are women"
You introduced women athletes.
You introduced Caster Semanya.

Had you forgotten . . .
We're discussing "Men are men and women are women"

Sorry - cross posted.

I don't know the answer to why CS was examined several times, but I assume you do, and I asked upthread, but you haven't answered. What was it about her that made the officials question her female status?

Er have you seen the interviews with CS about their childhood. There is quite a lot of contradictory evidence about living as a girl.

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny do you have one iota of sympathy or concern for the females who lost places and medals to a genetically male athlete? I care that they dedicated their lives to training to achieve their goals only to be beaten by an athlete with the advantage of having gone through a male puberty. Did anyone express concern about Caster never having had a period? Surely that was investigated? My friend who was born without ovaries caused concern when she hadn't started menstruating by 16.

High level female athletes seldom menstruate its one of the results of intense training.
We're discussing "Men are men and women are women"

Where on earth did you get the idea high level female athletes seldom menstruate? Some use birth control pills to manage their menstrual cycle, but that is artificial control.
Now you're dictating what is up for discussion? I suppose that's one way of avoiding having to confirm that genetically male CS is your priority over the genetically female athletes denied places or medals by CS.
Incidentally you still haven't answered what 'living like a woman' means. CS's own father confirmed that CS never ever wore skirts or dresses, played with girls or had any interest in any traditional girl's toys or past times preferring the boy's games, wrestling, etc and could out perform most of them. Now I don't think that's what makes CS a man, but none of that is traditional 'living as a girl/woman' so can you elucidate?

In case it's not clear I'd appreciate Glorianny explaining exactly how Caster Semenya has been "living as a woman" as opposed to "living as a man" or even "living as a human being"

Chromosome variations do not result in a 'third' role in reproduction. Those with chromosome variations who are fertile, produce either sperm or egg - not a third gamete type.

I asked that upthread, too, along with why did the athletics authorities decide to test CS to determine sex, and what did they say about the results of those tests - ie what was the reason given for their decision. I would appreciate those answers, too. I ask in an entirely non-demanding way, obviously, but it would further the discussion if we knew the answers.