Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

It shouldn't need to be said but we are in the midst of a culture war, those who stand up for the rights of women with what are and always were before all this began, innocuous comments, such as those expressed by JK Rowling, Graham Linehan to name but two, have been threatened with violence, demonised and no platformed by those with the most illiberal attitudes they would wish to impose on the majority.

Glorianny thank you for posting that excellent article. It is intelligent, measured and thoughtful - just what is required when considering this complex issue.

Doodledog

As you know, I disagree completely on a number of things Glorianny. The first being that this is a left/right split - that is ridiculously simplistic and basically wrong . Most, if not all of the more vocally realistic people I know (on this subject) are lefty feminists. Assuming that it is a ‘right wing plot’ because the Daily Mail has not cancelled journalists who have dared to criticise the trans agenda is facile - it is more that the left-wing media has been more authoritarian (and that’s if we accept that there are, in fact, left-wing media in the UK).

Also there is no need for some sort of sex police to be outside every changing room, checking everyone. It is more that if it is no longer ok for someone claiming to be a woman because he ‘identifies’ as such to go into a changing room unchallenged it will be easier for women (or shop staff) to ask someone behaving inappropriately to leave. As it is, they risk being accused of transphobia.

Yes, the extremists will say it is feminism gone mad. It suits their agenda as the trans movement is inherently misogynistic.

It’s a mess, and whilst I am pleased it is finally being discussed in more sensible terms, I think that if Sunak were not playing politics he would have nipped it in the bud long before an election is due.

So watch what you wear cos if you are in your leathers, short haired, a bit butch, you are going to be asked to prove you are a woman. Not in my world!

Not acknowledging the far right are using this issue is one of the problems. They are. It's part of a well planned ideology. You may not subscribe to that ideology but it's there.

Two points.

First Sunak comes out with anything that he thinks may win him votes. It just happens that he has hit on something sensible (although obvious) for once, but it does not mean that he is remotely interested in women’s issues. He isn’t.

Second
If you think that this makes the Tories electable, then you are delusional.

Glorianny

So what does he want people to do? Demand to see evidence of someone's sex before admitting them?

You do seem focused on people exposing their generals on demand.

It’s more likely that he wants people to be truthful about their sex without having to be asked.
I’ve seen plenty of justified posts condemning the lying in the Tory party, but if you condemn that lying, why are you happy to allow men to lie about their sex when it suits them?

Generals=genitals

If you think that this makes the Tories electable, then you are delusional.

👏👏👏

In most cases there is no need for someone to strip off to prove which sex they are, and if they have had skilled surgery and are taking the appropriate hormones it might not be obvious even then. "So watch what you wear cos if you are in your leathers, short haired, a bit butch, you are going to be asked to prove you are a woman. " (by Glorianny) is just baiting posters to get them angry. Glorianny is good at that. The whole jizz of someone who self-identitfies as the opposite sex without actually taking any steps to really make themselves more like one differs both from real men or real women and from people who have successfully made the transition. It is in the details, including the walk and the bearing and above all the attitude

The prat who stormed into the speed dating event for lesbians wearing skin-tight trousers over his erect male member and insisted that he was a woman and therefore shoud be included didn't need to strip off to show his credentials - they were prominently displayed. Neither do any other activists who bully their way into places where they should not be. Actions speak louder than words. Saying that they self-identify as Cleopatra wouldn't get anyone a free ride on the Pharoah's luxury barge cruising down the Nile.

Of course Rishi was stating the obvious but it’s a sad state of affairs that it needed to be said at all.

Only a few years ago, MPs at the conference, and in fact everyone who heard what he said would have looked at one another in complete bewilderment wouldn’t they, astonished as to why an obvious biological fact was stated at a Party conference.

Now though, because of a tiny minority of vociferous disruptive individuals who insisted that we can be anything we say we are, it was deemed necessary for the PM to clearly state the facts.

The majority of the population of course know that fact but nevertheless would doubtless have been cheered to hear that our PM is not pussyfooting around this issue.

Good for him.

All told I think it was a good conference. There were some difficult decisions to have been made certainly but I feel the decision on HS2 was the right one. I also applauded Suella Braverman.

Blimey!

Jennifer Eccles. Well said, I agree with everything in your post 100% and it is about time that the majority spoke out for the majority. A breath of fresh air

JenniferEccles I agree with you.

Who said it made him electable? I’m just pleased he spoke the truth about men being men and women being women. If that was really all it takes to get someone elected, I’m surprised other leaders can’t speak that truth.

Elegran

In most cases there is no need for someone to strip off to prove which sex they are, and if they have had skilled surgery and are taking the appropriate hormones it might not be obvious even then. "So watch what you wear cos if you are in your leathers, short haired, a bit butch, you are going to be asked to prove you are a woman. " (by Glorianny) is just baiting posters to get them angry. Glorianny is good at that. The whole jizz of someone who self-identitfies as the opposite sex without actually taking any steps to really make themselves more like one differs both from real men or real women and from people who have successfully made the transition. It is in the details, including the walk and the bearing and above all the attitude

The prat who stormed into the speed dating event for lesbians wearing skin-tight trousers over his erect male member and insisted that he was a woman and therefore shoud be included didn't need to strip off to show his credentials - they were prominently displayed. Neither do any other activists who bully their way into places where they should not be. Actions speak louder than words. Saying that they self-identify as Cleopatra wouldn't get anyone a free ride on the Pharoah's luxury barge cruising down the Nile.

So how do you think the staff in a shop looking at who is going to go into the women's changing room are going to decide who not to admit Elegran?

If I ask anything about how people will prove if they are a man or a woman I'm told I'm obsessed with genitals. I'm not. I just want to know how this supposedly simple idea will be put into practice in everyday life. And to point out the dangers of policies which rely solely on discriminating by appearance.

And Sunak saying a man is a man and a woman is a woman is about as clear as mud.

Mollygo

Who said it made him electable? I’m just pleased he spoke the truth about men being men and women being women. If that was really all it takes to get someone elected, I’m surprised other leaders can’t speak that truth.

This exactly. ^

I’m very pleased to see that things are being rowed back on all this. Transwomen are now rightfully, IMO, being excluded from women’s sports and female hospital wards will be for biological women - something I recall fighting for in the first place way back in the 70’s and 80’s.

I would be more than very upset if I was naked in a changing room and someone came in dressed as a woman, only to remove their clothing and show a flat chest and a penis.

Glorianny, you’re the one who keeps mentioning showing their genitals.
I believe males should be honest and not lie by word or action about their sex.
Do you believe it’s right that they do?

nanasam

I would be more than very upset if I was naked in a changing room and someone came in dressed as a woman, only to remove their clothing and show a flat chest and a penis.

I'd be upset if I was naked in any changing room and anyone else saw me. Changing rooms should be spaces where you are not seen naked and you are not made to look at anyone else naked..

Glorianny That is where communal changing rooms fail. There should be at least one private cubicle for the use of those who either have features which are not acceptable in a female space, or who don't like stripping off in public for their own reasons - and people whose sex is visually indeterminate shouldn't take offence if they are directed toward a cubicle.

There is a lot more attention given currently to the sensitive feelings of trans people and those " in your leathers, short haired, a bit butch" than there is to the sensitivities of vulnerable and half-dressed women to the sudden sight of a similarly unclothed male next to them.

A swimming pool near me has a communal women's changing room - or it did on the one occasion I went there, some years ago. The lockers were arranged to form a series of smaller areas, so it was possible to find a corner that wasn't in direct view of the few other women who were changing, but if it had been busier that would not have been possible.

A swimming pool is a place where it is impossible NOT to be naked at one point in the changing process.

Elegran I find there is little point saying this to Glorianny. She supports male rights to be in female safe spaces and says it is the women’s job to deal with it if they find them there. Then we move onto asking people to expose themselves instead of as I suggest, expecting them to be honest.
The ones at fault here are the TW and their supporters, not the females who object to their presence.

There are a few people on Gransnet who there is no point saying anything at all to. They are playing their own card game, and where others see conversations, they see only a chance of trumping as many posts as possible.

That statement just illustrates what a dim little chap he really is. His wife's praise was a clever move and might fool some, but the rest of us see it for what it was. Yawn, roll on the election.

Glorianny, as we all know, this is just a hypothetical question anyway. There are (and have never been) 'women only' spaces - as no genital or DNA evidence is ever required - anywhere (except perhaps in sports). I always have a giggle, as I really can't imagine any GN members stripping naked in a communal space anyway. Others (and the horses) would take fright and run away, I'm sure!

Wrong Hetty58 hospital wards used to be strictly women ie females or men ie males. I think doctors know the biology of the two sexes don't you? If they don't there could be some fatal mistakes.
Glorianny you always do the "how do we know" bit. How do you know whether the people you're interacting with are men or women, do you really ask each and every one "Are you a man or a woman?" That would be really odd, most of us just go on the visual clues and our innate, developed over millennia of human existence, instinct necessary for the survival of the race.