Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

I tried to read some posts here, then again, the political talk comes in, I don`t see so many things as political.. lets leave politics, left and right and just discuss..

people rights are often political though

red1

nothing like tory splitting, divide and rule, when will they realise it does not work......

Are you talking about divisions in general, or about 'gender' issues in particular? I think they have found that dividing groups has worked very well for the past 13 years - rich/poor, old/young, able bodied/disabled, working/'economically inactive', it goes on and on.

As far as the debate on this thread goes, however, it feels more and more as though the majority of the population sees through the ideology, and a shrinking minority cling to its tenets. Cynical a move as it may be, I think this is less about division than about uniting people who are otherwise tolerant and accommodating of difference but who can see the obvious dangers in what has been happening.

polnan

I tried to read some posts here, then again, the political talk comes in, I don`t see so many things as political.. lets leave politics, left and right and just discuss..

But the thread is about Sunak saying men are men and women are women. How can that be discussed without bringing in politics? It's an election year and Sunak is the PM and leader of the Conservative party

I can't be the only person who feels like he comes across like he is agency staff and he is getting paid more than the permanent workers and doesn't really know what he is doing

I'm out on a limb in this group I see but as far as I am concerned a trans woman is a woman, albeit a woman with a different life history from myself. But then so are women who have not had children or been married. There seems to be a kind of mass hysteria about mythical males who will oretend to be women in order to get into our toilets and our knickers. Do you actually know any trans women or parents of trans women? I do and I know what a hard road it is to go down.

Well said Rishi

GrammarGrandma 👏👏👏

What a lot of heartless self righteous group of old nasty grannies are on here!
My nephew was born female and from the moment she could recognise herself in a mirror she knew she should be a little boy.
He is now a happy man No longer suicidal No longer stuck in a body he loathes
How can that not be right?
Nobody bullied his parents into making them feel it was right It WAS right END OF!!
Shame on our PM worse than Thatcher!!

Juicylucy

Well said Rishi

WELL SAID!!

People should dress how they wish to BUT a sorry tale of a child who was being brought up gender neutral and dressed accordingly asked her Nana if they are a girl or a boy What should the reply be I don’t know you can decide when you are older. Talk about confusing the next generation

I tend to like or dislike people depending on what they are like eg kind caring thoughtful etc. regardless of trans, male or female. A relative told me their SIL deeply regrets having surgery to transition and 50% of other trans people they know feel the same. Sad as they can't go back after surgery.

MummyJoJo62 I’m pleased that your nephew is now happy and able to be content within his body. I’m also glad that his parents were thoughtful and kind enough to support him through his journey. I have seen a family member estranged by her narrow-minded bigotted grandparent because she is transgender. So sad that some people just can’t seem to live and let live.

Glorianny when I gave the biological definition of female you replied that was my definition, others would have other definitions. You implied we were all permitted our own definitions. Suddenly, when it suits your agenda there is but one definition of ideology. Perhaps you'd prefer the term gender religion, since it is a belief/faith based movement? Suits me, I can call myself a gender atheist.

GrammarGrandma have you missed all the reports of the men who declare they are transwomen who are in court for sexual assaults up to and including rape? I have no objection to transpeople living their lives as they see fit, and for the most part transwomen have few restrictions on them, except they should stay out of women's single sex spaces. You must have seen the transwomen who look like any other male, many sporting luxurious beards, and 90% keep their penis, so how are they different to all the other males? I have a transman in my extended family. It's always about transwomen though isn't it? Do you know any women who have been raped? I do and I know how hard it would have been if she'd not been able to access a single sex trauma group. If she'd lived in Brighton that wouldn't have been possible.

MummyJoJo62 it could be argued the heartless ones are those who don't care that a raped woman can be forced to refer to her rapist as "she" in court when reliving the vile way he used his penis to abuse her. Did you miss the Isla Bryson furore as just one example?

I did wonder how those who have transitioned, and their loved ones, felt on hearing Sunak’s heartless statement, not to mention his politicising of their difficult journeys.

Doodledog

Glorianny I knew that you would pick up on what you see as a difference in interpretation of the word 'ideology'. It's a shame GN don't have a bookie on here - I'd be worth a fortune if I could bet on your responses.

Here's another one for you:
Ideology' is a particularly slippery term that is still widely used in sociology. Its core meaning is identified as 'a set of beliefs treated as distinctive to a particular group or category of person'. There are many other definitions. Take your pick. All the same, what I posted is a system of ideas and ideals which form the basis of a number of policies in workplaces, hospitals, prisons, schools and other areas, which fits with your own choice of definition.

When you say 'now there is nothing', what do you mean?

Yes, people are being silenced - I say it again, just because you may have had no experience of trans dictatorship when you were in the workplace does not mean that it is not there now. And look at people like Graham Linehan, or Kathleen Stock, Allison Bailey etc etc. They may or may not gave been silenced because of the success of campaigns to stop it from happening, but the ideology decreed that they should have been, and it is absolutely the case that the attempt was made.

And please cease and desist with the unsubtle fascist digs? Your Cable Street reference is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about above - I rest my case .

Kathleen Stock is widely published and read and has a position at a US college that supports her ideas. She was working at a university which welcomed transpeople when she had her epiphany. She then had a lucrative book tour and a new job. So how exactly has she been silenced?

Speak to any woman who has worked with Graham Lineham and they will tell you exactly how he treats women. Not surprisingly he wants to apply the same restrictions to all women.

My definition is a dictionary definition by the way, no idea where yours came from.

I suppose the "surge in the number of people wanting to change sex" is similar to the increase in the numbers of gay people that emerged when homosexuality was legalised. It's simply a matter of people living hidden lives until they are able to express themselves properly.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Please could someone explain the ideology to me. Because on this I'm with the Chair of the London Assembly -Gender ideology- there's no such thing!

The ideology is that people can choose which sex they want to be.

That so-called 'gender' trumps biology (despite the obvious fact that gender is societally formed and is not innate at all).

That there is no need for safe spaces for biological women, as there is no difference between them and transwomen.

That men just need to say that they are women to become so, and thus gain access to anywhere that women can go, and compete against women in sports that require strength and are designed to test male bodies, and that women can say they are men and that will come true as well.

That children should be encouraged to believe that there are countless 'genders' and that they might be 'in the wrong body' - a concept that cannot be properly explained.

That a confused child who says that he or she is, in fact, the opposite sex should have this 'affirmed' by parents and schools, and that it should be legal for them to take puberty blockers and/or bind their breasts to prevent them from developing as nature intended.

That adolescents be given drugs that have radical effects, and that they will have to take them, at huge expense, for the rest of their lives.

And in common with most ideology it says that anyone not on board with all of that is a heretic and deserves to be silenced at all costs, with the use of threats if necessary.

By denying there is an ideology Mr Boff is saying that it is quite normal for men to be women if they say they are (and vice versa). No, he didn't actually say that, that's my interpretation.

Perhaps "ideology" isn't the right word anyway - maybe he's right, it isn't really an ideology... but it is a belief.

A belief that you can change your sex - which you cannot because as Professor Winston says it is embedded in genes in every cell in the body. We are genetically determined. Medical science has not yet found a way to alter those billions of cells.

Changing your gender identity is another matter. But one really should not be confused with the other.

Is anyone on here really transphobic? Is anyone against anyone else identifying with whichever gender they want to identify with? I don't think so.

Are there men who will take advantage of self ID as a woman - yes, they already have.

Is it right that a man committing a crime (any crime) later self IDs as a woman and is recorded as a female crime statistic, no it damned well is not right.

I could go on, but we've covered much of the ground already.

So let's call the ideology a belief. One that, if you refuse to accept it, can have consequences- like death / rape threats, loss of a job (and therefore income).

We are therefore being threatened, not only by cancelling and no-platforming, but also with threats of violence, and job losses. Because we don't believe what they believe. We don't accept that a man can become a woman simply by saying that he is. And, those that hold this belief were once a minority, but have now managed to convince rational and logical people - high-profile people and organisations - that Science is wrong and they are right... and you'd better believe it!

... and we're supposed to accept this?

As for Braverman - I don't listen to her, she's playing to the gallery for the sake of votes (and possibly the prospect of her being the future leader of the Tory party?). But, she should be challenged on what she said, not the fact that she raised the matter - though one could question her motives.

Rosie51

Glorianny when I gave the biological definition of female you replied that was my definition, others would have other definitions. You implied we were all permitted our own definitions. Suddenly, when it suits your agenda there is but one definition of ideology. Perhaps you'd prefer the term gender religion, since it is a belief/faith based movement? Suits me, I can call myself a gender atheist.

GrammarGrandma have you missed all the reports of the men who declare they are transwomen who are in court for sexual assaults up to and including rape? I have no objection to transpeople living their lives as they see fit, and for the most part transwomen have few restrictions on them, except they should stay out of women's single sex spaces. You must have seen the transwomen who look like any other male, many sporting luxurious beards, and 90% keep their penis, so how are they different to all the other males? I have a transman in my extended family. It's always about transwomen though isn't it? Do you know any women who have been raped? I do and I know how hard it would have been if she'd not been able to access a single sex trauma group. If she'd lived in Brighton that wouldn't have been possible.

MummyJoJo62 it could be argued the heartless ones are those who don't care that a raped woman can be forced to refer to her rapist as "she" in court when reliving the vile way he used his penis to abuse her. Did you miss the Isla Bryson furore as just one example?

If you are a "gender atheist" how do you function in every day life? Do you not go to a women's toilet? Do you not use a women's changing room? Do you not shop in the women's department of a shop?

Our every move is regulated by our gender. Which is what society sees of us. It does not see genitals or chromosomes. It does not examine every cell in anyone's body to ascertain their sex. It makes its judgements mostly on appearance. Which is what is so dangerous about this concept of "a man is a man and a woman is a woman" because the only way that can be applied in everyday life is by setting down restrictive guidelines about identifying all of us. Which means anyone a little different from those guidelines will either be discriminated against or have to constantly prove their gender, through some form of ID. It isn't a situation I want to see. And that is absolutely nothing to do with transpeople but with the right of every individual to dress and present as they wish without the need to prove anything.

Glorianny Speak to any woman who has worked with Graham Lineham and they will tell you exactly how he treats women. Not surprisingly he wants to apply the same restrictions to all women. you've spoken to them all have you? How exactly does he treat them? All I know of him is he supports women's rights to dignity, privacy and safety, and therefore the absolute need for some single sex places. There are plenty of women who say Graham Lineham is a lovely man, I've seen them in print and on Youtube.

LovesBach have you not heard of Intersex this is where a person is born with both genitalia and mixed chromosomes.

Glorianny Perhaps you should have the grace to ask me what my definition of 'gender atheist' means? You are obviously applying your individual definition. No I don't always shop in the women's department of a shop, I do go in women's toilets because I'm of the female sex for whom they're intended, I don't often use changing rooms preferring to try clothes on at home, and I rarely go swimming these days. I function perfectly well in every day life thank you, although I appreciate your concern.

We need these ppl to state the obvious that putting a dress on doesn’t make you a woman. I felt that strongly about it I joined women’s rights WRN. I never thought that i would have to fight for being a woman in my life. And these are very violent against women at the rallies etc. I’m all for live and let live but this is crossing the line when you dare not go in public loos incase a man walks in. I was at train station loo weren’t open on the train and while waiting for second train I had to nip into station loo and this man walked in and said I’m a woman he clearly wasn’t or even trying to dress like one but myself and others soon frog marched him out lol

The single sex space argument confuses me somewhat. Personally I would never use a communal changing room anywhere! Actually I think they are few and far between now. So, when I’m trying on clothes / getting dressed after swimming etc I’m in my own personal cubicle - what does it matter if a man or woman is in the neighbouring cubicle?

If there is equality what does it matter

Sunak the twitter sentiment PM