Sunak. Men are men and women are women.

Why is it so important to some people. What ever someone feels comfortable with be it male/female- female/male, doesn’t harm anyone else.
Or does it ?
Does the average person know enough about this, to make a judgement.

LizzieDrip

The single sex space argument confuses me somewhat. Personally I would never use a communal changing room anywhere! Actually I think they are few and far between now. So, when I’m trying on clothes / getting dressed after swimming etc I’m in my own personal cubicle - what does it matter if a man or woman is in the neighbouring cubicle?

LizzieDrip have you failed to see any of the publicity, and indeed prosecutions, that have arisen from some mixed sex changing facilities? Many facilities are not floor to ceiling solid walls with a solid door, but partitions stopping short of floor and ceiling and some with a curtain for a 'door'. There have been recorded incidents of men using phone cameras directed under the partition to film women undressing. There have been incidents of men 'accidentally' pulling back the curtain to expose a half naked woman. This is just a step further from the "up skirting" practice which was outlawed on 12 April 2019.
Single sex needs to be just that, based on sex. When any man can declare himself a transwoman and gain access to women's facilities despite having made no changes to himself, it accords predators easy, unhindered access to potential victims.

Eileen

If there is equality what does it matter

If men and women really were equal - in size, in strength and in the hormonal differences which lead to the greater muscular development that occurs at puberty in men, and the greater aggression shown by them (recorded in statistics of crimes of violence), it wouldn't matter so much.

It doesn't much matter, either, who is in the next cubicle in a row all occupied by other people busy choosing clothes or changing into a swimsuit.

It does matter if a female patient is immobilised in a hospital bed in a single room in a women's ward, and gets an uninvited night visit from a self-id'd transwoman who has kept all his/her male parts and male hormones and male urges.

It matters if a similar prisoner in jail has self id'd as female and is in a female prison surrounded by vulnerable women.

It matters if a very mediocre male athlete or swimmer transitions and enters all-female competitions, suddenly zooming up the ratings with his male physique past women who have trained for years. (In one recent case, a woman and a transwoman tied for third place - but it was the transwoman who was placed on the step of the podium, while the woman with the same score got no recognition at all.

It matters if women who have fled to a refuge to escape domestic violence from men and are traumatised by the close presence on males find that they have to share the accommodation with bearded transwomen.

It matters if a preteen girl who would rather climb a tree in jeans than spend an hour trying on pretty dresses, or a preteen boy who likes crocheting and hates team sports, are pushed into believing that they are "in the wrong body" and prescribed puberty-delaying hormones and eventually progress into surgery, instead of being left alone to develop into an average adult of their own sex.

Livey

Why is it so important to some people. What ever someone feels comfortable with be it male/female- female/male, doesn’t harm anyone else.
Or does it ?
Does the average person know enough about this, to make a judgement.

No-one wants to deny people the right to wear what they want to wear, love who they love, spend their time doing whatever they wish, but that goes two ways. Most trans people just want a fulfilling life, being themselves, but there is a minority of activists who seem to see life as a battleground in which they have to defeat non-trans people, and a minority who have carried over into their transwoman lives the macho attitudes of their male past.

LizzieDrip

The single sex space argument confuses me somewhat. Personally I would never use a communal changing room anywhere! Actually I think they are few and far between now. So, when I’m trying on clothes / getting dressed after swimming etc I’m in my own personal cubicle - what does it matter if a man or woman is in the neighbouring cubicle?

I was in a women's ward awhile back - a man from the men's bay continually came into the ward, for no particular purpose other than to look at the women and walk out again.

An elderly lady who had a catheter hanging out of her vagina, finding it difficult to hold her nightdress closed behind her back and walk with her Zimmer at the same time became confused and upset when he came into the ward. I told him- politely - that he was in the wrong ward, to which he responded with an expletive and the observation that he was "allowed" to be in there. I have absolutely no idea whether he was a trans woman or not, but the point is - there are some places and spaces where women would prefer not to have men around. Even if they are wearing the same nightgown - if they have a penis - they are men.

It might not matter to you personally, but it does matter to a heck of a lot of other women.

There are now fewer communal changing rooms - but they still exist. I read on a SM site where a woman with her young daughter was in a communal changing area in their swimming pool and had to watch as this man took off his wet swim wear and stood there with a semi-erect penis fondling himself while he searched for his dress and shoes.

Single cubicles are fine - if they reach from floor to ceiling - many don't.

Men who identify as women with full male genitalia shoul not be in those communal spaces.

Lovey, if you don’t know about the actions of some TW e.g cheating in sport etc. and the violence and discrimination against females, by TRA I’m not sure where you’ve been.
Elegran’s post above puts it really well.

I’m not sure if this helps the debate but my friend who is a (gay) man says this whole trans debacle is “straight men trying to oppress and dominate women - again”.

I agree with your friend, Fernhillnana.

NannyC1

LovesBach have you not heard of Intersex this is where a person is born with both genitalia and mixed chromosomes.

Yes - and the point of this is?

LovesBach

NannyC1

LovesBach have you not heard of Intersex this is where a person is born with both genitalia and mixed chromosomes.

Yes - and the point of this is?

There is always someone who brings it up, and it has little or no bearing on the subject of trans issues.

Here we go aiming at the right wing intelligentsia again!!!

I'm deeply unsubtle about all this. My red line is drawn at: if you have a penis then you should use the men's facilities; if you haven't then you can use the women's. If you possess a penis but have an overarching desire to use the women's facilities, then you must have it removed.

Otherwise you call yourself anything you like and dress any way you like, no one cares.

(Although the person I saw striding down the high street in heels, mini skirt, bouffant wig, full face of makeup, and a big bushy grey beard, did seem to have missed an important memo...)

The belief that there are only two genders is not universal. Both some Native American cultures and rabbinical literature recognise and respect multiple genders.

The existence of intersex people would suggest that the sex of individuals is more nuanced than some believe.

My friends ‘daughter’ identifies as male and I would not dream of misgendering him. My friend from university is a trans female. She is female as far as I’m concerned.

A very simplistic statement which appeals because it makes it easier to think, or in reality not think, about a complex issue.

Yes, men are men and women are women generally speaking.

But if an adult genuinely feels that he or she has been born in the wrong body and are willing to go through a sex change operation, then in my opinion, they should after the treatment is complete be entitled to a new identity, and to be accepted as members of the sex they have chosen.

Anyone who cross-dresses, or goes around calling themselves by a male name while physically a woman, or a female name while physically a man may do so in my book too, but must abide by the rules that apply to their physical gender.

In other words use male toilets, if they have male genitalia, serve in the services as men, be imprisoned in men's prisons, admitted to male wards in hospiital, and obviously, a woman who goes around using a male identity although physically a woman must expect to be regarded as a woman in all the categories I listed above.

This applies to adults. Children should not be encouraged to believe that they should have been boys, if girls, or girls, if boys. Small children commonly do want to be the opposite sex, while still too young to know what that really means.

I find it reprehensible that some doctors today encourage parents to "accept" a small child's desire to be what they are not. The age of legal majority is soon enough to start accomodating a genuine desire to change sex.

I think a lot of us know individuals who are trans or non-binary, but those individuals do not represent the 'movement' as a whole, and do not insist on forcing themselves into places where they aren't wanted. I sort of understand how that can colour people's judgement, but it's not really reasonable to use the argument 'I know one pleasant and harmless transperson, so you should allow anyone who says they are a woman to go anywhere, regardless of whether it makes you uncomfortable or scared.

I also know two so-called 'intersex' people - one online and the other in person. Both are female, with female gametes - their male attributes are along the same lines as someone with an extra toe or finger. That is not enough to make judgements about other 'intersex' (both hate the term, incidentally) people, but they both feel that gender is something different entirely.

There is some research here which suggests that 'the statistical rarity [of someone having functional male and female gametes] is overwhelmingly minute', and this also suggests that the existence of 'intersex' people is not as nuanced as it may seem. People are either one sex or the other, even if they have residual organs from the sex that they are not.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10265381/#:~:text=Regarding%20whether%20it%20would%20be,do%20possess%20such%20a%20combination.

Native American and other cultures that recognise different 'genders' are structured differently from ours, and they do not suggest that changing 'gender' equates to changing sex. Many people (myself included) would like to see a situation where transpeople were accepted as transpeople, so would be able to live exactly as they liked, but not be assumed to be a sex they are not. So transwomen are not women, but transwomen, and it should be an offence for them to impose themselves into female spaces. The problem is when they do insist that they are a different sex.

Like in the story of The Emperor's new clothes, we need more people to say "but he's got no clothes on"

twitter.com/dnalerinrehtron/status/1710690536779088244
They failed to get Jenny Watson's lesbian event cancelled this time so went for disruption instead. Nasty bullies one and all. Why are these people so threatened by females meeting other females in an exclusively female group?

This is all so sad. Minority groups, both of which suffer / have suffered from oppression and bigotry, arguing against each other. Playing right into the hands of the homophobic bigots!

Glorianny
the right of every individual to dress and present as they wish.

Nobody has the right to dress and present as they wish.
Unless you’re saying that you endorse the right to appear like the rainbow monkey complete with genitalia that appeared at Redbridge library, or the one that presented itself on X this morning of a man in a very close fitting pink dress with his erect penis clearly outlined beneath the material and the usual you can’t stop me heading.

The problem with trans and clothing is not really to do with the clothing, it’s to do with the lying that goes with it.
A fully equipped man dressing in stereotypical women’s clothing and going into female pool changing rooms is a liar and has no consideration for the women he aspires to be.
Endorse lying-your choice. Where do you draw the line about accepting lying as right?

I suppose it would be fairly safe to say that the transgender community do not speak with one voice only - apart from that which asks for respect of their human rights (which should be academic). Of course, the most vociferous get the most coverage and, you can be sure that certain media will find the most aggressive, loudest and shout-iest for their column inches.

But - what of those, whose names I've forgotten but not their words... "I'm a transwoman, not a woman"? Where, for the sake of balance, are their voices? Have they been drowned out? I've heard more than one or two... more 'in depth', more thoughtful, observations on what it means (to them) to be a trans woman. Are they regarded as 'heretics 'by the main body of trans women - or indeed the whole trans community?

Another aspect that I would mention; when Jenni Murray said back in 2017 that "trans women should not call themselves real women", Rachel Cohen (campaigns director of Stonewall) said in her rebuttal, “Being trans is not about ‘sex changes’ and clothes – it’s about an innate sense of self. To imply anything other than this is reductive and hurtful to many trans people who are only trying to live life as their authentic selves.".

This is an interesting comment, because the 'Isla Brysons' and others who've made headlines (for all the wrong reasons), together with the "I'm-more-of-a-woman-than-she-will-ever-be" (quote from a transwoman when condemning her female opponent) - frequently appear as the stereotypical woman... blonde wig, pink lipstick, pink nails, not infrequently rather plastered with make-up, dangly ear rings etc... This, to me, smacks of what some straight men regard as a desirable, 'sexy' woman - it is a man's idea of female attractiveness. How does that square with Cohen's "innate sense of self" that is not "all about sex-changes and clothes"? How many women on here - and I know, we are older women - but how many relate to that image of womanhood? It's the stereotype of a woman isn't it - so what, actually, is the man identifying with if not his idea of what a sexy woman looks like? Which begs the question, do these particular trans women have even the faintest idea of womanhood or what a woman is? In other words, as we often say on here, being a woman is about more than wearing a dress and lippy.

Finally (if you've got this far) - do men who decide they ultimately identify as women, forget all the privileges they had in their former lives, as men? As 'women' - are they prepared to take a back seat in the corporate world, have things 'mansplained' to them, be afraid to sometimes be in isolated, empty streets late at night, be subjected to pestering and harassment, even during daylight hours, etc?

Certainly, the 'shouty', placard-waving, "suck my girl-dick" ones aren't - because what they are doing is continuing the typical misogynistic behaviour of the privileged male. Is this what they were like, prior to identifying as a woman?

I can’t bear the current Tories. But they are the only mainstream party stating the blinking obvious about men and women.
Starmer, being the lawyer that he is, fudged it by saying 99% of women don’t have a penis 😡
As for libdems and greens, they are lost to the trans ideology.

LizzieDrip

This is all so sad. Minority groups, both of which suffer / have suffered from oppression and bigotry, arguing against each other. Playing right into the hands of the homophobic bigots!

That would be true if people like the man crashing the lesbian dating event are really transwomen.

Much of the opposition is because many of them aren't - they are misogynistic men who are taking advantage of the self-id thing, which means that there are no longer any conditions attached to becoming a transperson, to humiliate and dominate women. Many Trans Rights Activists are homophobic bigots, who believe that homosexuality doesn't exist, and that same-sex attraction should be reframed as same-gender attraction, which means that lesbians should find trams women attractive because they have espoused the female gender. They also encourage boys and young men to believe that they are 'in the wrong body' if they are 'too feminine', so the number of gay men is also reduced - they become transwomen. They have infiltrated LGB groups which have now become LGBT, to include 'trans' under the gay umbrella, when 'gender' has nothing to do with sexuality, and being gay is all about that.

What is so sad is that anyone speaking out about women's rights or gay rights is accused of the bigotry that they are fighting against.

I repeat Doodledog, minority groups fighting against each other plays into the hands of the bigots - doing their work for them. You’re entitled to your opinion on the subject; I’m entitled to mine.

I didn't say you weren't. Shall I repeat that, to give it more weight? I didn't say you are not entitled to an opinion, and I know I am entitled to mine .

Which fighting minority groups are you talking about? Last time I looked, women don't form a minority group, and they are the ones suffering most.