Labour has won both byelections

Callistemon21

Anniebach and I were talking about what happened in 2019.

I do wonder sometimes about the perceptions some people hold about what happened then and exactly what part of No Corbynites don't understand.

I understand the"no" Callistemon21 I think there was more to it than a simple "no' But I think wondering where people's ideas come from and why the Tories are trusted and socialism is feared is a quite legitimate question, given the current chaos.

People do want change.
But they rejected Corbyn.
🤔

Corbyn not socialism was not trusted

So why hasn't Starmer adopted socialist ideas?

Glorianny

Gosh I do wonder sometimes about the perceptions some people hold about what is happening in the UK.
It seems to me that many have been brainwashed into thinking socialism is some sort of evil system and in spite of everything that has happened cling to the philosophy that only right of centre is workable.
And yet most of us grew up in a socialist state. We had a free health system, council housing, welfare benefits and free education up to degree level. And all this in a county which was still struggling to recover from the cost of a war.
Now we have a health system which is failing and being rapidly privatised, thousands of homeless families, beggars on our streets, flourishing foodbanks and young people with huge student debts, in a country which has never been so affluent.
And after 13 years of Tory rule an economy which is ruined.
I'm like Alice down the rabbit hole
"Curiouser and curiouser"

As for Starmer I have no idea what he stands for (apart from himself)

I agree. I wish we still had council houses being built and not sold off, more generous social security, and free higher education and an NHS with less money going to private providers. That is what I see as socialism.
Oh, and security for every baby born into families, not just the first two.

Well yes we have had a Tory government for 13 years.

You asked me Daisyannreturns
"So you are not a Labour Party member or supporter, and you do5n't want Labour in government, Ilovecheese?"

I was a labour member who voted for Starmer based on the pledges he made in order to be elected as leader. I thought those were his values and his intentions. I was wrong but I don't think it was me that was wrong to believe what he said, I thing he was wrong to say things that he didn't believe and make pledges that he didn't intend to keep.

Extreme Socialistism e.g., the peddling of undemocratic socialism is "evil"; just as "evil" as the undemocratic wealth based Oligarchy from the right has been Glorianny.

What we grew up in was a democratic country that had voted for what we got. Even so, not everyone thought that your rose-tinted picture was what as you describe. My father, and many in the forces, never voted Labour again.

As it is, an undemocratic minority, that couldn't win when they had the chance, want to force their policies on the country. By the sound of things they are also prepared to fight from within, and try and take over - undemocratically - a party that will have been voted in on a different mandate.

"Was". So you are now not an LP member Ilovecheese but fight on in places like GN to try an ensure they loose to the Tories? You would rather we had the Tories than not get your own way because you would be part of a minority in the Labour Party?

Is there any need to be quite so unpleasant Daisyannreturns ?
The Conservatives will never win in my constituency so I am not going to help them. I am however entitled to hold an opinion.

As for Starmer I have no idea what he stands for (apart from himself)

labour.org.uk/missions/

No doubt the more detailed manifesto is being prepared in time for the GE.

Ilovecheese

Glorianny

Gosh I do wonder sometimes about the perceptions some people hold about what is happening in the UK.
It seems to me that many have been brainwashed into thinking socialism is some sort of evil system and in spite of everything that has happened cling to the philosophy that only right of centre is workable.
And yet most of us grew up in a socialist state. We had a free health system, council housing, welfare benefits and free education up to degree level. And all this in a county which was still struggling to recover from the cost of a war.
Now we have a health system which is failing and being rapidly privatised, thousands of homeless families, beggars on our streets, flourishing foodbanks and young people with huge student debts, in a country which has never been so affluent.
And after 13 years of Tory rule an economy which is ruined.
I'm like Alice down the rabbit hole
"Curiouser and curiouser"

As for Starmer I have no idea what he stands for (apart from himself)

I agree. I wish we still had council houses being built and not sold off, more generous social security, and free higher education and an NHS with less money going to private providers. That is what I see as socialism.
Oh, and security for every baby born into families, not just the first two.

Right to buy has been abolished under Labour in Wales Ilovecheese - and in Scotland under the SNP, and very close to being abolished in NI too I gather. More council houses are also being built. England is the outlier, and nothing Starmer has said indicates that he won’t move in the direction the other three countries have taken, so your criticism of him in this regard is misplaced.

That was a perfectly reasonable question to ask Ilovecheese.

Would you rather we had the Tories than not get your own way because you would be part of a minority in the Labour Party?

No DAR and I am in no danger of enabling the Tories;
I do hope you are right about that "Casdon* but he hasn't said anything about stopping RTB eithr.

Callistemon21

^As for Starmer I have no idea what he stands for (apart from himself)^

labour.org.uk/missions/

No doubt the more detailed manifesto is being prepared in time for the GE.

Am I the only person who thinks of a manifesto as an Abracadabra moment - having delighted one grandson with this as a game? No legal obligation to deliver but boy does it sound good. Abracadabra

DaisyAnneReturns

That was a perfectly reasonable question to ask Ilovecheese.

Would you rather we had the Tories than not get your own way because you would be part of a minority in the Labour Party?

Thanks DAR for asking the question and thanks Ilovecheese for answering it.
It’s one I’ve asked a number of times. My impression is that idealists criticise Starmer and long for a socialist government. I’m a life long Labour supporter. I left because of Iraq then because of Corbyn. I won’t rehash my concerns about Corbyn except to say I didn’t trust him and didn’t believe he’d win an election. I returned in time to vote in the leadership. Yes I voted Starmer with Nandy another impressive candidate.

I voted Michael Foot and was surprised not everyone shared by enthusiasm. I’m older now plus I’ve lived through the dreadful Tory governments. I suppose I’m a pragmatist not an idealist. I am fearful of anther Conservative government. They’re destroying our country. I hope people vote aiming to keep them out

I read that Jeremy Hunt is to stand down before the next election. Doesn’t want to get voted out I guess.

Jeremy Hunt has probably had enough and has a family to consider, is quite wealthy and has had cancer in the past. I think he has done what he could in difficult circumstances so maybe a vote of thanks for service?

I see Sunak is ensuring that the next government of any colour will not be able to pick up the HS2 project.

He is apparently selling off the land at half its value, at an unnecessary speed. It will be interesting to see who is buying it.

ronib

Jeremy Hunt has probably had enough and has a family to consider, is quite wealthy and has had cancer in the past. I think he has done what he could in difficult circumstances so maybe a vote of thanks for service?

Crikey. That was a quick turnaround then. It was only a year ago that he wanted to be leader of the party….
‘Eleven candidates put themselves forward for the July leadership election, with eight receiving sufficient nominations from Conservative MPs: Kemi Badenoch, Suella Braverman, Jeremy Hunt, Penny Mordaunt, Rishi Sunak, Liz Truss, Tom Tugendhat, and Nadhim Zahawi.’

Thank you Iam. I am very much a pragmatist but then, as a centrist, I doubt I could be other than pragmatic. I am realising the my centre politics can often more be described as a strong belief in democracy. Democracy seems to disappear as you move to parties extremes.

Whitewavemark2

I read that Jeremy Hunt is to stand down before the next election. Doesn’t want to get voted out I guess.

I've just heard that on the internet Whitewave. As yet it seems to be unconfirmed but it would make sense.

It looks like Conservatives are likely to have to stand a lot of new candidates.

It sounds as if it will be at the next election MayBee. If it isn't, and he leaves before the election, it will be a real kick in the teeth for Sunak.

MayBee70 I read that Jeremy Hunt’s brother died from cancer recently so perhaps it had some influence on the decision to step down from politics? It is important to find time for family.

I note that Lord Agnew has resigned from his post overseeing fraud in Sunak’s government.

He has left because of what he has found as a result of investigating the governments. Covid business payments. He stated that there is gross fraud and Sunak’s failure (refusal) to deal with it.

To do so would highlight Sunak’s total incompetence.