Labour has won both byelections

Anniebach and I were talking about what happened in 2019.

I do wonder sometimes about the perceptions some people hold about what happened then and exactly what part of No Corbynites don't understand.

Gosh I do wonder sometimes about the perceptions some people hold about what is happening in the UK.
It seems to me that many have been brainwashed into thinking socialism is some sort of evil system and in spite of everything that has happened cling to the philosophy that only right of centre is workable.
And yet most of us grew up in a socialist state. We had a free health system, council housing, welfare benefits and free education up to degree level. And all this in a county which was still struggling to recover from the cost of a war.
Now we have a health system which is failing and being rapidly privatised, thousands of homeless families, beggars on our streets, flourishing foodbanks and young people with huge student debts, in a country which has never been so affluent.
And after 13 years of Tory rule an economy which is ruined.
I'm like Alice down the rabbit hole
"Curiouser and curiouser"

As for Starmer I have no idea what he stands for (apart from himself)

Anniebach

2019 Labour obtained its worse general election defeat since 1935 . Labour gained 1 seat, lost 61.

I think putting any other interpretation on that than a humiliating defeat is using spin to a dizzying degree!
😃

2019 Labour obtained its worse general election defeat since 1935 . Labour gained 1 seat, lost 61.

Oreo

They did what was needed to make the Party electable again after the fiasco of the Corbyn years.

Yhe fiasco of staffers trying to loose the election, the party was electable remember 2017and 2019 he got a lot of votes too believe it or not. Now Starmer has put democracy back in the box the establishment will win again.

They did what was needed to make the Party electable again after the fiasco of the Corbyn years.

I appreciate that Keir has had a difficult job to do, and I will absolutely be voting Labour. Not because of blind loyalty, but because I genuinely believe that Labour will do a better job than the shambles we've had over the past 13 years, and because I want to live in a benign and liberal big state, which is what I think Labour stands for.

I do worry about Labour's record on trans/women's issues, however. I don't see that as 'Wokery', as to me being woke is about recognising oppression and working against it, whereas trans activism is about oppressing women and girls, and is very dangerous for children.

I am not happy about the way in which the Left in the party has been 'purged', either. I understand that Corbyn was a millstone, but left-wing beliefs are valid ones, and the LP needs to embrace a range of views if it is to be 'for the many, not the few'. Discussion is important, and cancelling/silencing is undemocratic.

Those two things are important to me, and I wish the LP had taken a different approach to both of them, but it is unrealistic to expect any group of people to fully represent one person's views and beliefs, and anyone who refuses to vote until one party is exactly what they want is betraying democracy.

When they get into power, which I hope and believe they will, there will be a chance to object to laws and ways of thinking, but while that is happening at least we should have a better education system, a better-funded NHS and more investment in the society that Thatcher and her successors have done so much to destroy.

Galaxy

I know, getting the party to a position of electability, what a terrible thing to do.
Much better to be in the outside unable to do one thing to change peoples lives.

A bit like the Lib Dem Party really.

For all those critics of Starmer, give him a chance as he can’t show what he’ll do until he’s in the position of being able to do it.
Could be a year yet to a GE, but whatever happens between now and then there’s no one else better than him to make the Labour Party appeal to the mass market.
I agree that he needs to keep a lid on all the wokery tho.

Ilovecheese

Quokka

Whitewavemark2

He has been pretty ruthless with trouble makers, we can see that by the way the left are so annoyed.

Starmer is a strong leader.

A strong leader could cope with a range of differing political leanings within his party.

I agree Quokka. A strong leader would not just remove anyone who disagrees with him but would try to negotiate.
Labour didn't really win these byelections so much as the Conservatives lost them.
Starmer looks weak to me, that's why he is imposing his will on the party instead of leading them in his direction.

Negotiating with the left of the party has never been possible though Ilovecheese, because they are unable to understand the need for compromise, or that what they want to achieve is not what the electorate wants.
You can see the level of mistrust on this thread from those on the right that Starmer will take us into a dystopia of left wing values, and from the left that he’s somehow weak because he won’t support their ideologies coming to fruition like some kind of magician. And yet still he has brought Labour to ekectability in a very short time. Anybody who thinks he is weak needs their head examined in my opinion.

Grany

Iam64

Grany can be relied on to post the current anti Starmer position. What s/he doesn’t add is the bullying of Labour councillors to resign in support of Palestine - to make clear their rejection of Starmer and Israel

I don't like Starmer or trust him, he is a proven liar. He expelled labour members who support Palestinians, even Jews, isn't that weird. He has the backing of the Israel lobby who won't have any mention of Palestine so Starmer does what they want. Could it be that the Israel lobby are afraid that support of Palistine will show up the Israel government their brutal treatment of Palestinians, occupation and apartheid. Independent media, Investigative journalists have spoken written about Starmer and his time as DPP he took the establishment line. He is a dangerous man.

I can tell from what you say here that you were a Corbyn supporter.It’s probably what he would be saying if anybody was listening to him these days, which they aren’t.

Ilovecheese

Quokka

Whitewavemark2

He has been pretty ruthless with trouble makers, we can see that by the way the left are so annoyed.

Starmer is a strong leader.

A strong leader could cope with a range of differing political leanings within his party.

I agree Quokka. A strong leader would not just remove anyone who disagrees with him but would try to negotiate.
Labour didn't really win these byelections so much as the Conservatives lost them.
Starmer looks weak to me, that's why he is imposing his will on the party instead of leading them in his direction.

I agree. It’s more a case of ‘anyone but the Conservatives’.

Ilovecheese

Quokka

Whitewavemark2

He has been pretty ruthless with trouble makers, we can see that by the way the left are so annoyed.

Starmer is a strong leader.

A strong leader could cope with a range of differing political leanings within his party.

I agree Quokka. A strong leader would not just remove anyone who disagrees with him but would try to negotiate.
Labour didn't really win these byelections so much as the Conservatives lost them.
Starmer looks weak to me, that's why he is imposing his will on the party instead of leading them in his direction.

So you are not a Labour Party member or supporter, and you do5n't want Labour in government, Ilovecheese?

DaisyAnneReturns

Quokka

Whitewavemark2

He has been pretty ruthless with trouble makers, we can see that by the way the left are so annoyed.

Starmer is a strong leader.

A strong leader could cope with a range of differing political leanings within his party.

Hasn't he done exactly that?

No

Quokka

Whitewavemark2

He has been pretty ruthless with trouble makers, we can see that by the way the left are so annoyed.

Starmer is a strong leader.

A strong leader could cope with a range of differing political leanings within his party.

I agree Quokka. A strong leader would not just remove anyone who disagrees with him but would try to negotiate.
Labour didn't really win these byelections so much as the Conservatives lost them.
Starmer looks weak to me, that's why he is imposing his will on the party instead of leading them in his direction.

Quokka

Whitewavemark2

He has been pretty ruthless with trouble makers, we can see that by the way the left are so annoyed.

Starmer is a strong leader.

A strong leader could cope with a range of differing political leanings within his party.

Hasn't he done exactly that?

Whitewavemark2

He has been pretty ruthless with trouble makers, we can see that by the way the left are so annoyed.

Starmer is a strong leader.

A strong leader could cope with a range of differing political leanings within his party.

Grany

Galaxy

So this is what I mean when I say what Starmer has achieved in making labour electable is astounding. He has had to fight on every front imaginable.

yes he's done a good job, just what the establishment wanted.

I think it is what Labour Democrats want too. Obviously the far left Socialists may not like it. Sadly, on both the left and the right we reach a point where there own view of what they want supersedes democracy.

I don't think you will stop the labelling of "left" and "right" Maisie. It's an international shorthand. Admittedly we may differ slightly in what we mean by various degrees of leftness or rightness but it does give some shared understanding without having to spell things out each time.

Your view may/will differ from mine but that doesn't stop labelling being a useful tool.

MaizieD

Dorries was MP for mid Beds. from 2005 on. It has always been tory. So what on earth does Johnson have to do with it?

Pretty obvious imo. A failed PM (I won't bother listing all the mistakes, lies, etc.) in charge of a failing Tory government - the voters in the by-elections could see their future prosperity and security in doubt. Add in Truss just to heap more wood on the fire.

Galaxy

I know, getting the party to a position of electability, what a terrible thing to do.
Much better to be in the outside unable to do one thing to change peoples lives.

Much better to be in the outside unable to do one thing to change peoples lives. This. It allows people to gripe and swipe without any responsibility or accountability.

I know, getting the party to a position of electability, what a terrible thing to do.
Much better to be in the outside unable to do one thing to change peoples lives.

Galaxy

So this is what I mean when I say what Starmer has achieved in making labour electable is astounding. He has had to fight on every front imaginable.

yes he's done a good job, just what the establishment wanted.

He has been pretty ruthless with trouble makers, we can see that by the way the left are so annoyed.

Starmer is a strong leader.

So this is what I mean when I say what Starmer has achieved in making labour electable is astounding. He has had to fight on every front imaginable.

Iam64

Grany can be relied on to post the current anti Starmer position. What s/he doesn’t add is the bullying of Labour councillors to resign in support of Palestine - to make clear their rejection of Starmer and Israel

I don't like Starmer or trust him, he is a proven liar. He expelled labour members who support Palestinians, even Jews, isn't that weird. He has the backing of the Israel lobby who won't have any mention of Palestine so Starmer does what they want. Could it be that the Israel lobby are afraid that support of Palistine will show up the Israel government their brutal treatment of Palestinians, occupation and apartheid. Independent media, Investigative journalists have spoken written about Starmer and his time as DPP he took the establishment line. He is a dangerous man.