Previous Tory voters

I don’t trust any government not to raise taxes that will hit the lowest paid worst together with those slightly better off who can’t afford to pay an accountant to get them the best deal, whatever the excuse the government use for doing it.

GSM you refer regularly to people who have worked hard in order to get what you've got. But, what about all those who work equally as hard but without the same rewards? If Labour were to increase the highest rate of tax it would not make a huge difference to the wealthiest in our society but would to those less well off.

There is always an element of luck/chance in our lives that affects our futures. I was lucky in that when I was thinking about what do with my working life I met the senior partner in a small West End practice who offered to take me on as an articled clerk, which I accepted. I have worked for very small firms and one of the Top 3 plus one medium sized practice.

In the very large firms there was a policy of up or out. I was lucky because I did not work in the practising office but a department that dealt with the firm's own taxation which was extremely complicated. I was unlucky in that it was decided to move this particular department out of London to an area where 8 months before we had been under bidders for a "do-uppable". We then decided to buy a house in Suffolk and about 2 weeks after we moved the departmental move had been announced. Ironically within our small group we often talked about our department moving of London but of course senior partners do not tell their staff what they are thinking of.

I think that there is an element of luck in most tings that we do.

I am in touch with people who currently would like to take their work grievances to tribunal and they are not employees who are at the bottom of the pile. The wait for one is 49 weeks.
The main problem with this is that your employer obviously has to be named. In my opinion this will most likely blacklist somebody from getting another worthwhile job in their chosen field

Who do you class as ‘the wealthiest in our society to whom increasing the highest rate of tax would not make a huge difference’ Dinahmo? I paid the highest rate of tax but was by no means one of the wealthiest people. Basically the harder I worked the more tax I paid.

Yes, there is often an element of luck or chance in life but many people set out to make their own luck. I did my time in local provincial firms whilst my son was at home. When he decided to make his life in London after university I moved to a partnership with a City firm which had approached me when he was a small child - I couldn’t consider commuting then because he was my priority, not my career, though the latter was essential to keeping the roof over our heads and putting food on the table. But I would not have had that initial approach had I not worked hard to gain a reputation in my chosen field of practice. And had I not devoted Lord knows how many evenings to studying in order to pass all my exams - without a degree my employer would not give me articles until I had done that - I would probably have remained a secretary until the day I retired. It’s called making an effort in order to get on in life.

What a few years, any government would have had problems. I will vote in a general election as I usually do as I trust the other lot less. What ever happens it’s going to be years before we even start to pay off what we owe. Perhaps this governments should not have paid workers for being out of work like other countries, or carry on as normal, waiting for others to develop the vaccine.It’s easy being wise after the event.

^ If Labour were to increase the highest rate of tax it would not make a huge difference to the wealthiest in our society but would to those less well off.^

If that were only so.
HMRC provides an illustrative guide to the direct impact of tax changes on revenues, which shows that: a 1p increase in the basic rate of income tax would raise £5.5bn in 2022/23 (0.2% of GDP), and a 1p increase in the higher rate would raise £1.3bn in 2022/23 (0.1% of GDP); publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5801/cmselect/cmtreasy/664/66408.htm

What ever happens it’s going to be years before we even start to pay off what we owe.

I assume you're talking about the so called 'national debt.

In which case, some £800 billion of it is 'owed' to the government by the government as it is money 'raised' by Quantitative Easing'. The Bank of England (which belongs to the nation/government) created that money to 'buy' government bonds as a means of putting money into circulation. It wasn't borrowed from anyone, it was pure money creation.

The rest of government 'borrowings' consist of money obtained by the sale of government bonds, or money invested by the public in National Savings accounts or Premium Bonds. The people and institutions who hold these bonds and savings don't want their money paid back to them, unless they want to cash in some of their savings/investments. They want the income they earn by way of interest , or wins on the premium bonds, and consider their investments to be safe because the government, contrary to popular belief, cannot go bankrupt. It can always pay its obligations. That's why people and institutions like to save and invest with the government because their money is safe.

Nothing is 'owed' to anyone else.

So who do you think we're have to pay off, Allsorts?

Income tax is not the only tax, MOnica. Looking at income tax alone distorts the picture.

As it is, the top 10% of people in receipt of income, pay a slightly lower percentage of that income in tax than does the lowest 10% (govt. figures).

The 'middle' 80% pays a lower percentage than those at either end.

Allsorts

What a few years, any government would have had problems. I will vote in a general election as I usually do as I trust the other lot less. What ever happens it’s going to be years before we even start to pay off what we owe. Perhaps this governments should not have paid workers for being out of work like other countries, or carry on as normal, waiting for others to develop the vaccine.It’s easy being wise after the event.

What do you mean about waiting for others to develop the vaccine? The most widely used vaccine was developed in Germany and marketed by an American company.

Nothing is 'owed' to anyone else.

You used to be able to look up who owed what,
Havent been able to see that for years.

Back then anyway, and cant think it will have changed, it was amazing what countries owed to each other.

Germanshepherdsmum

Who do you class as ‘the wealthiest in our society to whom increasing the highest rate of tax would not make a huge difference’ Dinahmo? I paid the highest rate of tax but was by no means one of the wealthiest people. Basically the harder I worked the more tax I paid.

Yes, there is often an element of luck or chance in life but many people set out to make their own luck. I did my time in local provincial firms whilst my son was at home. When he decided to make his life in London after university I moved to a partnership with a City firm which had approached me when he was a small child - I couldn’t consider commuting then because he was my priority, not my career, though the latter was essential to keeping the roof over our heads and putting food on the table. But I would not have had that initial approach had I not worked hard to gain a reputation in my chosen field of practice. And had I not devoted Lord knows how many evenings to studying in order to pass all my exams - without a degree my employer would not give me articles until I had done that - I would probably have remained a secretary until the day I retired. It’s called making an effort in order to get on in life.

Wow! As if the rest of didn't work hard for very long hours or make an effort!

I'd better not repeat "smug"!

Last figure I can find
s of the end of 2016, 27.6% of the national debt was owed to overseas governments and investors

No growstuff, you’d better not. There’s nothing smug about saying you qualified by working at night for years after a full day’s work, cooking a meal and looking after a house and idle husband, and then, again after a full day’s work, looking after your child and working at night whilst they sleep to do the 70 hour week your job demands. It requires a pretty strong work ethic.

I do not think that most of us did work very long hours. Most people worked from 9.00am - 5-5.30 and then went home . That is why the peak of the rush hour everywhere was just before 9.00am and from 5.00-6.00pm

Of course some people at all levels of income did work long hours, but certainly not all. I worked 9.00-5.30, except in exceptional times when I worked early and at weekends, but only for occasional events.

Bliss!

M0nica

I do not think that most of us did work very long hours. Most people worked from 9.00am - 5-5.30 and then went home . That is why the peak of the rush hour everywhere was just before 9.00am and from 5.00-6.00pm

Of course some people at all levels of income did work long hours, but certainly not all. I worked 9.00-5.30, except in exceptional times when I worked early and at weekends, but only for occasional events.

Lucky you..

Extremely lucky.

Incredibly lucky.

I had quite a number of jobs over my career, in a wide variety of firms and as I stood nose to nose with fellow commuters on tubes and trains it is quite clear that there were many, many people who worked similar hours. Why otherwise does any media talk about working patterns always talk of the standard 9.00-5.00? Not only that but it is common to deplore those who are forced to work long hours.

Maisie, I can’t understand your attitude to National Debt. Does it matter where we owe it? You can’t continuously keep borrowing out of trouble. Just because we don’t own it a country, we owe it. I am sure if you Google it as I did it you will see to what and whom we owe the money, it’s a debt and needs paying.

dayvidg

I have often voted Conservative, though also UKIP, Lib Dem and Green in recent years. Only if Labour fully commit to Proportional Representation would I consider voting for them, as I feel all majority Government over the years has been to detriment of the British people.

Just out of interest which system of proportional representation would you advocate. Remember we had a referendum on the subject not so very long ago and the chosen system didn’t seem to impress the voters at all.

Allsorts

Maisie, I can’t understand your attitude to National Debt. Does it matter where we owe it? You can’t continuously keep borrowing out of trouble. Just because we don’t own it a country, we owe it. I am sure if you Google it as I did it you will see to what and whom we owe the money, it’s a debt and needs paying.

It does get paid back. The following is a very simplistic explanation. Jo Public puts money into premium bonds or national savings or buys govt stocks. That means that they are investing in the country in one way or another. The investors either receive an income or they win on the premium bonds. Eventually the investors withdraw their money at which point the country has paid them back.

Now for the not quite so simplistic. Towards the end of the 17thC a group of merchants lent money to the William 111 in order to fund his war against Louis X1V. This loan was eventually repaid.

Further loans were made in order to fund various wars during the 18thC, then the Napoleonic Wars, WW1 and WW2. The last repayments of the latter were made to Canada and the US on 31 December 2006.

In 2010 in the run up to the GE the Tories started talking about the National Debt and made quite a big thing abut it. At that time the UK percentage of GDP was 74, France 68, Germany 52, the US 74, Italy 112 and Japan 166. All countries have a national debt.

Obviously not all the funds come from Jo Public. They also come from pension and investment funds and other institutional lenders.

IMO Mrs T did a a great deal of harm when she told us that running the country was just like managing a household. Absolute nonsense. Nearly all businesses at some point need to borrow money in order to finance expansion. That loan is recorded on a company's balance sheet as a liability. The money paid into the bank account is an asset and is recorded as such. A very simple example of double entry book-keeping!

Germanshepherdsmum

No growstuff, you’d better not. There’s nothing smug about saying you qualified by working at night for years after a full day’s work, cooking a meal and looking after a house and idle husband, and then, again after a full day’s work, looking after your child and working at night whilst they sleep to do the 70 hour week your job demands. It requires a pretty strong work ethic.

Much of someone's real character lies in what they don't say about themselves. Self-praise is the first sign of insecurity. Some things sound better if they don't come from you.

M0nica

I do not think that most of us did work very long hours. Most people worked from 9.00am - 5-5.30 and then went home . That is why the peak of the rush hour everywhere was just before 9.00am and from 5.00-6.00pm

Of course some people at all levels of income did work long hours, but certainly not all. I worked 9.00-5.30, except in exceptional times when I worked early and at weekends, but only for occasional events.

I worked very long hours. Typically, 8-5 at school and another three hours every evening with five or six hours during the weekend. And don't start on school holidays ... I worked at least half of my time, including taking groups of children abroad, which was a 24/7 job. There were times when I did tutoring on top of a full-time job, just to make ends meet for my children and me. Apparently, I was idle and/or lacked aspirations .

And I've come across plenty of people who have two or three jobs - all co-ordinated in couples, so that one of them could do childcare. Idle and lacking aspirations? I think not!

Allsorts

Maisie, I can’t understand your attitude to National Debt. Does it matter where we owe it? You can’t continuously keep borrowing out of trouble. Just because we don’t own it a country, we owe it. I am sure if you Google it as I did it you will see to what and whom we owe the money, it’s a debt and needs paying.

I don't understand why you can't understand plain English, Allsorts.

1) A large part of it isn't debt at all because it was money created by the Bank of England. Call it 'printing money' if you like.

2) The rest is people's and institutions savings and investments. They don't want it paid back to 'clear the national debt.

In fact, they're mostly not even aware that it is 'the national debt'.

They might ask for some or all of it back if they want to spend it, but that is their choice. But mostly they leave it where it is because they want the interest (or the prizes) from it.

Investors and savers regard government stocks and savings accounts as a secure place to put their money because they know they will be repaid when they ask for it. It is the safest investment possible.

Some foreign countries or individuals hold UK. government bonds for exactly the same reasons, it's a safe investment.

It's not a debt, it's more like a bank account. Would you want your bank to suddenly insist on giving you back all the money from your account or accounts whether you wanted it or not?