Nearly 1 million children faced destitution in the UK in 2022..

Luckygirl3

"Society has always had its dregs" - "nanny state."

This is Victorian stuff, although even they had their philanthropists.

I find the lack of compassion very sad indeed.

I do understand why those who have not worked with the "dregs" fail to grasp what being brought up in these sort of circumstances really means. But I do not understand how they cannot see that tackling these problems benefits us ALL - rich and poor.

Tackling them how? What do you do propose?

I have listed these several times upthread.

And I have commented on those suggestions. What no government can change is human nature. There have always been people who don’t want to make an effort to improve their lot, who are content to resort to crime rather than working, who are dependent on some substance or other and will always just carry on like that no matter what choices are available to them.

Luckygirl3

One girl in one situation from which no conclusions can be drawn. Maybe law was not for her.
The crux of the matter is that she was from "a deprived part of London." Why is it deprived I wonder? Who has the power and the remit to change that? Only our elected representatives. Have they done that? .... no. Are they even trying?

I don't want to take the discussion off track again, though I do consider some things relevant.
I worked in a deprived part of London, East London to be precise. Having lived there prior to 2012 until recently, we witnessed a complete turnaround in the area, over 100,000 new jobs were created, new neighbourhoods were built, the infrastructure grew, affordable housing and great transport links were established, and culture and sport flourished. It was a great example of how to provide upward growth in a previously very deprived area.
However, and I know this because I was involved in education, there were still disaffected, dysfunctional families who despite everything on offer did not avail themselves of the opportunities to improve their lives and those of their children.

MerylStreep

Thank god in the not too distant future the non academic are going to have their place in the sun. Why, AI.

We already have two robots working at our really quite small facility. One is a most human and reprograms himself constantly. I blame his parents

JaneJudge

MerylStreep

Thank god in the not too distant future the non academic are going to have their place in the sun. Why, AI.

We already have two robots working at our really quite small facility. One is a most human and reprograms himself constantly. I blame his parents

😂😂😂

Child support from en errant father is a joke! When the ex and I split up I had to go on benefits DHSS until I trained for a new job. However I had to apply for CSA or lose my benefits. My ex was assessed at £550.00 a month but of course I never saw a penny. In the interim my ex left his job as a Police Officer on health grounds and got a medical pension, he then moved to Thailand. When I got a job and was able to apply for CSA for myself it turned out that no one had bothered to collect any money from him 'As I was on Benefits!' Then I was told they had no jurisdiction over him as he was no longer resident in the UK until I pointed out that his pension was paid by the British Government! They reassessed him twice and I got the paltry sum of £28.00 a month for both our son's for one year! However while I was receiving benefits the DHSS paid the interest element of my mortgage. After I stopped getting payments I continued to receive letters from them saying how much money they had taken from my ex husband but not payable to me. This continued for a few of years. No doubt claiming the money they had paid for the interest element of my mortgage. The ex seemed to be under the impression that the £550.00 he was initially assessed for was going to be paid to me as well as benefits! If only!

Joseann

Luckygirl3

One girl in one situation from which no conclusions can be drawn. Maybe law was not for her.
The crux of the matter is that she was from "a deprived part of London." Why is it deprived I wonder? Who has the power and the remit to change that? Only our elected representatives. Have they done that? .... no. Are they even trying?

I don't want to take the discussion off track again, though I do consider some things relevant.
I worked in a deprived part of London, East London to be precise. Having lived there prior to 2012 until recently, we witnessed a complete turnaround in the area, over 100,000 new jobs were created, new neighbourhoods were built, the infrastructure grew, affordable housing and great transport links were established, and culture and sport flourished. It was a great example of how to provide upward growth in a previously very deprived area.
However, and I know this because I was involved in education, there were still disaffected, dysfunctional families who despite everything on offer did not avail themselves of the opportunities to improve their lives and those of their children.

But the growth in London boroughs is little to do with social mobility. The poor are simply being shipped off to other places and the more affluent are moving in.
revisesociology.com/2019/04/08/displacing-the-poor-from-london-and-its-relevance-to-critical-victimology/

That was about housing homeless people Glorianny. I’m sure you know that people have been moved out of London for many years. New Harlow in Essex is one of a good number of towns built for the ‘London overspill’.

Germanshepherdsmum

That was about housing homeless people Glorianny. I’m sure you know that people have been moved out of London for many years. New Harlow in Essex is one of a good number of towns built for the ‘London overspill’.

Of course it was but London Boroughs at that time had their own council housing programmes, so although many were moved out, some were still accommodated. The lack of affordable council housing now means that the poorest are no longer catered for. Expensive private rentals mean that the poorest become homeless, as rents are increased. They are then shipped out of the area. Meaning the problems of deprivation are just moved on, they are not eliminated.

I don’t follow your reasoning Glorianny. People are homeless due to the high cost of renting in London so they are housed outside London. How is being housed deprivation? By the way there are many affordable rentals in London - the development where my son has a flat consists of several blocks, in one of which there are quite a lot of housing association flats - and that’s just one development, in an expensive area.

I think there's truth in that Glorianny, because as neighbouring boroughs like Shoreditch and Hackney grew wealthier, the knock on effect was to make neighbouring Stratford become more attractive to private landlords and less affordable to the poor.
What I can't understand is why some of these poor people didn't grab the opportunities to find work and move on up. I know John Lewis in the Westfield shopping centre was employing local disadvantaged people and giving them a day off a week to attend study courses. There were other schemes available too, and if I were in that position I would have been first in the queue to set myself up with a better future. Some of the local residents, however, just wanted to carry on living as before and then moan when they couldn't stay. They missed a great opportunity, especially around 2012 and the years beyond. Is it because they are apathetic, and find it too much effort, I don't know? I do agree that the problems of deprivation just end up going elsewhere, the same thing happens in Paris too.

And where have I said it’s their choice Maizie? I have said that it may be a result of their chosen lifestyle, which is entirely different.

I think that with that statement you are now just taking the P*ss, GSM

Joseann

I think there's truth in that Glorianny, because as neighbouring boroughs like Shoreditch and Hackney grew wealthier, the knock on effect was to make neighbouring Stratford become more attractive to private landlords and less affordable to the poor.
What I can't understand is why some of these poor people didn't grab the opportunities to find work and move on up. I know John Lewis in the Westfield shopping centre was employing local disadvantaged people and giving them a day off a week to attend study courses. There were other schemes available too, and if I were in that position I would have been first in the queue to set myself up with a better future. Some of the local residents, however, just wanted to carry on living as before and then moan when they couldn't stay. They missed a great opportunity, especially around 2012 and the years beyond. Is it because they are apathetic, and find it too much effort, I don't know? I do agree that the problems of deprivation just end up going elsewhere, the same thing happens in Paris too.

If you take up a job with a low wage and you live in an area with high rents you simply can't afford to stay there. It isn't apathy it is economics. Much of London now has problems with a supply of low paid staff.

The point which Joseann makes about people not bothering to take the opportunities offered to improve their lives is interesting. Nobody can expect life can carry on without change. They have to make an effort to keep up with change, and take whatever opportunities are offered to assist them to do so.

What I can't understand is why some of these poor people didn't grab the opportunities to find work and move on up.

I absolutely get why this is hard to understand, but taking up some of these opportunities demands that you have:

- sufficient self confidence and sense of self worth - so many young people from truly disadvantaged backgrounds have none of this. These are things that we take for granted but are lacking in their lives.
- life experiences and educational experiences that make you feel this might be worthwhile - so many of these young people simply feel that education has not been for them (the system is set up to create that feeling) so they feel nervous of people whom they see as being in authority.
- family back-up to overcome the practicalities - transport, getting up in time etc. - and to provide proper encouragement and support.
- money enough to buy suitable clothes (so as not to feel out of place), to pay bus fares, to buy a lunch etc.
- the ability to face out any teasing from their peers.
- the ability to organise their time - not something they will have experience of in some chaotic households.
- the courage to show up in a strange environment.

These projects are to be valued, but they need more than just "Here's an opportunity, just get on with it." They need the background work and support to make them happen. And this can involve a lot of input from personnel, money etc.

I am currently trying to support a young person who is in foster care in an apprenticeship placement. Looking at it from the outside it is a wonderful opportunity. We have dealt with as many practicalities as we can (transport was a huge hurdle, suitable clothing, time-keeping etc.), but still it is proving hard for him. He is from a smoking household and himself vapes - this is not allowed so he has to go off the premises and up the lane in the cold to stand and do this. He makes himself scarce during the lunch breaks as he does not have the social skills to join with everyone else - these simply cause him fear. Part of the job involves occasionally doing things in public and he is mortified and red-faced and finds this very hard. There are problems of him being sufficiently patient, which the setting demands. There are aspects of his upbringing which are at odds with what is required of him and he is struggling. If we were not providing this mass of back-up and understanding he would simply become another young person who has inexplicably not persevered with an opportunity offered.

So what are you proposing should be done Lucky? One to one support of children is simply not possible, and it seems from what you say that things are not going to end well with this one.

I propose early family interventions and preventive measures ... that requires long term thinking and investment. It was beginning to happen but was knocked on the head as this government simply could not understand it.
I hope very much that things will work well for this young man. If help had been available to his family before he was even born we would not be picking up the pieces now.

One in three Sure Start centres were closed. So, many more remain open. Antenatal classes including parenting skills are available for all pregnant women, free of charge. As I have said before, you can take the horse to water but you can’t make it drink. Vaping is this boy’s choice - too bad that he has to do it outside in the cold because others don’t want to be subjected to it. If he doesn’t have the social skills to mix with his colleagues maybe he’s not in the right job? He can either recognise that he needs to up his game to continue in this job and get on or sink to the level of his parents. His choice.

You're being harsh here, GSM.

I don't know about Sure Start centres, but I do know that a friend of mine's daughter never saw a HV during pregnancy, and there were no antenatal classes because of Covid, never mid parenting classes. The daughter lives hundreds of miles from her mother (my friend) so the only support she had was on the phone. Nothing to do with taking horses to water - there was no water to take her to, and AFAIK the clinics that were there when mine were young weren't available to her either.

Smoking/vaping can be a crutch for people who are suffering stress. Addictions aren't about 'choice'. Nobody would choose to be an addict.

Social skills are learnt, and if this boy learns to feel comfortable with the people around him maybe he will learn them, but until then it is not fair to accuse him of 'choosing' not to mix with them. Suggesting that he should give up and 'sink to the level of his parents' (!!) is very defeatist. Do you really see people as existing on 'levels'? Wow.

Covid was an exceptional situation Doodledog. My daughter in law’s baby was born this year and she has received excellent support from the NHS throughout.

This boy is not showing signs of moving upwards. It seems to be an example of ‘I can’t’. I don’t recognise ‘can’t’. More ‘don’t want to try’. He needs to make an effort and take responsibility or he will never move upwards. It’s a matter of choice and guts. Yes, people do exist on different levels, but they don’t have to.

Luckygirl3

*What I can't understand is why some of these poor people didn't grab the opportunities to find work and move on up.*

I absolutely get why this is hard to understand, but taking up some of these opportunities demands that you have:

- sufficient self confidence and sense of self worth - so many young people from truly disadvantaged backgrounds have none of this. These are things that we take for granted but are lacking in their lives.
- life experiences and educational experiences that make you feel this might be worthwhile - so many of these young people simply feel that education has not been for them (the system is set up to create that feeling) so they feel nervous of people whom they see as being in authority.
- family back-up to overcome the practicalities - transport, getting up in time etc. - and to provide proper encouragement and support.
- money enough to buy suitable clothes (so as not to feel out of place), to pay bus fares, to buy a lunch etc.
- the ability to face out any teasing from their peers.
- the ability to organise their time - not something they will have experience of in some chaotic households.
- the courage to show up in a strange environment.

These projects are to be valued, but they need more than just "Here's an opportunity, just get on with it." They need the background work and support to make them happen. And this can involve a lot of input from personnel, money etc.

I am currently trying to support a young person who is in foster care in an apprenticeship placement. Looking at it from the outside it is a wonderful opportunity. We have dealt with as many practicalities as we can (transport was a huge hurdle, suitable clothing, time-keeping etc.), but still it is proving hard for him. He is from a smoking household and himself vapes - this is not allowed so he has to go off the premises and up the lane in the cold to stand and do this. He makes himself scarce during the lunch breaks as he does not have the social skills to join with everyone else - these simply cause him fear. Part of the job involves occasionally doing things in public and he is mortified and red-faced and finds this very hard. There are problems of him being sufficiently patient, which the setting demands. There are aspects of his upbringing which are at odds with what is required of him and he is struggling. If we were not providing this mass of back-up and understanding he would simply become another young person who has inexplicably not persevered with an opportunity offered.

Thanks for your post Luckygirl3and well done for the efforts you are making.
The issues this boy has are similar to the ones I saw many with in primary schools, low self esteem, no social skills, lack of confidence. Some of them had issues with anger and self control as well. The work the teachers and support staff put in building up these children, and providing them with a supportive environment, was outstanding. Unfortunately when they left at 11 those children were still in need of support in small units, something huge secondary schools struggle to provide. Sadly they slipped back and sometimes dropped out of education completely.
Providing smaller units for 11-16s might help.

Germanshepherdsmum

Covid was an exceptional situation Doodledog. My daughter in law’s baby was born this year and she has received excellent support from the NHS throughout.

This boy is not showing signs of moving upwards. It seems to be an example of ‘I can’t’. I don’t recognise ‘can’t’. More ‘don’t want to try’. He needs to make an effort and take responsibility or he will never move upwards. It’s a matter of choice and guts. Yes, people do exist on different levels, but they don’t have to.

You can't know what is in his mind, any more than I can. It may very well be 'I really want to but don't know how'. You may not recognise 'can't', but many people don't know anything else. If you literally know no-one who has 'succeeded', it is bound to be easier to think that you can't, rather than that you tried but weren't up to it.

I have no plans to give up on him. Too many people have done so already.

If we write people off ... as they often are .... we will suffer the consequences in so many ways .... all of us, not just those unlucky enough to have been subject to a deprived childhood.

How will we all suffer the consequences?