Nearly 1 million children faced destitution in the UK in 2022..

Germanshepherdsmum

There have always been, and will always be, such children growstuff. You’re stating the obvious. When I worked in local government it was for a county council which was responsible for social services so I have seen and heard of plenty of instances of hopelessly dysfunctional families - one family in particular could only communicate in grunts and the children ate on the floor from the dog’s bowl. Modern day Neanderthals almost. So I’m far from unaware. And doing pro bono work I have come across people who were virtually illiterate (possibly dyslexic) who needed help with filling in forms but who worked in jobs they could manage and wanted to do so. They didn’t want to just live on benefits. Apart from paying benefits to those genuinely too disabled to work, and topping up the minimum wage where needed, what do you expect the government to do about it? Resort to a system of only allowing those with a sufficiently high IQ to breed? And no, that is not a genuine question.

But there is evidence that providing early intervention programmes does help GSM. The Headstart programme run in the US since 1965 has been substantially monitored and participants tracked.
A 2020 study found that cohorts that attended Head Start had higher incomes and years of education as adults than similar children who did not attend.[29] A 2021 study found that the children exposed to more generous Head Start funding had substantially improved test scores relative to children that were not exposed to generous Head Start funding.[30] Another 2021 study found that students enrolled in Head Start ended up having substantially higher high school completion, college enrollment and college completion rates than comparable children who were not enrolled in Head Start.[31] The authors of the study concluded, "these estimates imply sizable, long-term returns to investments in means-tested, public preschool programs."[31] A 2009 study, which compared siblings, found that those who attended Head Start showed stronger academic performance as shown on test scores for years afterward, were less likely to be diagnosed as learning-disabled, less likely to commit crime, more likely to graduate from high school and attend college, and less likely to suffer from poor health as an adult.[32] A 2022 study found that Head Start increased the employment and earnings of single mothers.

It's positive in all the areas you claim are impossible to change.
The problem is in the UK the programme was cut before it had any real impact.

But I posted the short term financial gain for the NHS of a proper Sure Start provision. Now why wouldn't a Tory government want to keep something which was reducing cost and usage for the NHS? A service already showing signs of strain. They couldn't possibly want to overburden it could they?

May I ask the relevance of having a string of letters after your name?

There have always been, and will always be, such children growstuff. You’re stating the obvious. When I worked in local government it was for a county council which was responsible for social services so I have seen and heard of plenty of instances of hopelessly dysfunctional families - one family in particular could only communicate in grunts and the children ate on the floor from the dog’s bowl. Modern day Neanderthals almost. So I’m far from unaware. And doing pro bono work I have come across people who were virtually illiterate (possibly dyslexic) who needed help with filling in forms but who worked in jobs they could manage and wanted to do so. They didn’t want to just live on benefits. Apart from paying benefits to those genuinely too disabled to work, and topping up the minimum wage where needed, what do you expect the government to do about it? Resort to a system of only allowing those with a sufficiently high IQ to breed? And no, that is not a genuine question.

Germanshepherdsmum

I have no idea Doodledog. My belief is that it’s up to the individual. Everyone has the benefit of an education. All pregnant women have access to antenatal classes which include parenting skills. Everyone has access to contraception. All this has been the case for many, many years. But people simply don’t want to take advantage of these things and make the necessary effort to make their lives better than those of their parents. I wonder how many children have, this morning, had to get themselves to school (or off to play truant, getting into trouble) hungry and ill-clothed because their mothers are still lying in bed (perhaps with yet another boyfriend) and just can’t be bothered? Will those children bother to try not to repeat the pattern when they have children of their own or will they just replicate that lifestyle down the years? What do you think any government can do about this CBA attitude?

I don't know how much experience you've had of real families GSM. I taught for 30 years in genuine comprehensive schools and I've had plenty. Some of our pupils went on to Oxbridge and high-flying careers, while some of them came from families which couldn't be described as anything other than "deprived".

I really do object to your stereotyping. Many of the deprived families had a family member who was ill or disabled. Some of the children were carers. Others were in single parent families. Sometimes the other parent had just disappeared or sometimes was in prison. It wasn't the child's fault how parents behaved and there was no aspirational role model around.

This probably is not very politically correct, but sometimes parents weren't very bright and they passed their not very bright genes to their children. No matter how hard those children tried, they were never going to succeed academically. They lacked confidence to stray outside their comfort bubble. It doesn't mean that they were lazy and not capable of caring for their children. They were still human beings. They wanted to feel worthwhile, but they just were not capable of passing exams and had to make do with menial jobs paying minimum wage, which barely pays for essentials. I came across many parents who were both working a number of jobs just to make ends meet. If one of them became ill, it made life even more difficult.

I didn't start teaching until I was in my late 20s. I had a string of letters after my name and already had a successful career. Initially, I found it very difficult to understand the mentality of children who didn't like doing schoolwork. I gave them lectures about working hard to achieve success, but their eyes would glaze over. They'd heard it all before and it was a while before I realised that what I was saying had no relevance to their lives as they experienced them.

How do you stop children getting into gangs Katie? This is really the responsibility of the parents. How many of the gang members have no father figure, or one who is involved in criminality? How many parents just have no idea where their children are in the evenings?

And still are.

Germanshepherdsmum

There are still Sure Start and similar centres Glorianny.

The Conservatives have substantially cut them GSM
Under the Conservative Government (2019–2022)
In February 2020, the reviewed report has shown that 1300 centers have been closed during the last 10 years, meaning more than one in three Sure Start centres were axed under the Tories, the brutal cuts have seen 1,292 of the vital family centres shut since 2010, ministers admit. At their peak in 2009/10, there were 3,600 centres. The austerity slashed numbers by up to 85 per cent in some areas. In Staffs, 46 of 54 centres shut, and Oxfordshire lost 37 of its 45.
And in fact the centres showed economic viability
In June 2019, a study conducted by the Institute for Fiscal Studies concluded that Sure Start reduced the numbers of people taken to hospital and saved millions of pounds for the National Health Service. The study found that where Sure Start offered high levels of service in poor neighbourhoods in England, visits to hospital to treat injuries fell among all children of primary school age, and by a third of all 11-year-olds.[10] Access to the programme cut the probability of admission to hospital in the poorest 30% of areas by 19% at the age of 11, while in the richest 30% of areas there was almost no impact. Across all areas, the programme's effect was equivalent to annually averting 5,500 hospitalisations of 11-year-olds
So they were effective,

There are still Sure Start and similar centres Glorianny.

All the police can do is try to contain the low level drug, other criminality and vice, they do know who is involved but there is no point in trying to prosecute the small fry because the penalties are derisory. Also having a police record will make it even more difficult for them in future years, there should much more effort into stopping children getting involved in gangs.

Is it likely to happen?

I have no idea Doodledog. My belief is that it’s up to the individual. Everyone has the benefit of an education. All pregnant women have access to antenatal classes which include parenting skills. Everyone has access to contraception. All this has been the case for many, many years. But people simply don’t want to take advantage of these things and make the necessary effort to make their lives better than those of their parents. I wonder how many children have, this morning, had to get themselves to school (or off to play truant, getting into trouble) hungry and ill-clothed because their mothers are still lying in bed (perhaps with yet another boyfriend) and just can’t be bothered? Will those children bother to try not to repeat the pattern when they have children of their own or will they just replicate that lifestyle down the years? What do you think any government can do about this CBA attitude?

Germanshepherdsmum

You will never stop that. It’s too easy to steal or deal drugs rather than work for a living. As individuals we only suffer if they decide to mug us, stab us or steal our nice cars. Obviously you think chucking more money at the problem will solve it. I disagree. You’re talking about kids who don’t want to engage, don’t want to live by our rules, think we’re idiots for working our backsides off to get the things we want rather than just stealing from someone else.

There is substantial evidence that the programme begun in some states in the USA, and on which Sure Start was modelled, significantly reduced the involvement of deprived children in crime as they grew older. So actually "chucking more money at the problem" does work

GSM what do you think can be done to improve inequality? I don't mean by individuals, but by 'society'/governments/authority?

And a fellow pupil of my son’s, in rural Essex, committed a drug-related murder.

keepcalmandcavachon Charles Dickens has been foremost in my mind since the start of this thread. That’s a great quote. The shame is that it’s still pertinent today. Probably into the future too.

Germanshepherdsmum

It does. But lucrative enough for kids to take the risk, and what’s going to happen to them if they’re caught? Not a lot. Prison is reserved for those higher up the food chain.

A former pupil of mine who got into drug-dealing was murdered.

This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased.
Charles Dickens

It does. But lucrative enough for kids to take the risk, and what’s going to happen to them if they’re caught? Not a lot. Prison is reserved for those higher up the food chain.

JaneJudge

I can’t think dealing drugs is easy, surely it’s frightening and dangerous

That all depends where you come in the pecking order of dealing 😉

I’m sure many social workers have done their best but failed because the parents simply don’t engage. However much money you chuck at the problem there will always be people who just don’t want to know.

As for Iceland, lauded by Hetty, the following breakdown of their immigrant population is interesting. I think many will agree that this shows significant differences to the immigrant population of the UK. I believe there is some significance in this, though we have always had lazy home-bred criminals:
www.statista.com/statistics/595181/number-of-immigrants-by-country-of-origin-in-iceland/

Germanshepherdsmum

You will never stop that. It’s too easy to steal or deal drugs rather than work for a living. As individuals we only suffer if they decide to mug us, stab us or steal our nice cars. Obviously you think chucking more money at the problem will solve it. I disagree. You’re talking about kids who don’t want to engage, don’t want to live by our rules, think we’re idiots for working our backsides off to get the things we want rather than just stealing from someone else.

You clearly dislike that someone might "mug us, stab us or steal our nice cars." So you do know exactly how the absence of investment in people and in preventive services impacts on all of us, in spite of saying itherwise upthread.
Solid supportive family services are a long term investment in our society and the longer this is lacking the harder it will be to make any impact.
I also care about the individual young people who are growing up in poverty and chaos and are missing out on their one chance of a happy life.

I can’t think dealing drugs is easy, surely it’s frightening and dangerous

Hetty58

Children aren't born lazy, greedy or evil. They are innocent and brimming with potential. Their experience of life, others' views and expectations of them and the opportunities they have (or don't have) largely determine the type of adults they'll eventually be.

Absolutely this.

An example - Iceland - one of the OECD countries which invests most in it's education system. The National Curriculum (guide), focused on real understanding, is inclusive and based on six pillars:

Literacy in the widest sense,

Education towards sustainability,

Health and welfare,

Democracy and human rights,

Equality

Creativity.

Oh, and Iceland has a very low crime rate.

Children aren't born lazy, greedy or evil. They are innocent and brimming with potential. Their experience of life, others' views and expectations of them and the opportunities they have (or don't have) largely determine the type of adults they'll eventually be.

You will never stop that. It’s too easy to steal or deal drugs rather than work for a living. As individuals we only suffer if they decide to mug us, stab us or steal our nice cars. Obviously you think chucking more money at the problem will solve it. I disagree. You’re talking about kids who don’t want to engage, don’t want to live by our rules, think we’re idiots for working our backsides off to get the things we want rather than just stealing from someone else.