Starmer’s Dilemma Over Palestinian Situation

Callistemon21

Yes. I think most of us do.

I think there are some aspects of all this that you are not getting, though, Grany

Never a truer word Callistemon21. Including the very major one that acts of extreme terrorism start wars.

Grany also neglects to mention the exponential population growth in Gaza in the past few decades, which is a major contributory factor.

The U.S. Census Bureau International Database data estimates that Gaza’s Palestinian population increased from only 265,800 in 1960 to 342,700 in 1970, 431,600 in 1980, 645,100 in 1990, 1,1 million in 2000, 1.5 million in 2010, and 2.1 million in 2023 and that it will rise to 2.4 million, 2.9 million in 2040, and 3.2 million. It shows that Gaza already has a population density of 5,839 per square kilometer, most of which is under 14 years of age and well over half of which is under 19.

Hey Ho.

Amnesty has been monitoring the situation in Gaza and considers there is evidence of war crimes, Deliberate strikes on civilian buildings, no warnings were given and Amnesty found no evidence of military use. One block of flats had a Hamas leader living there but he was not at home when the flats were bombed.
www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/

Grany

But talking helps bring peace a settlement
continuing wars make more terrorists, countries have to go down the route of talks if there is to be a settlement for both Israel and Palestine. Continuing the war does not help Palestine or Israel

Ghazi Hamad the spokesperson for Hamas has said

We will repeat October 7th attack time and again until Israel is annihilated

Hamas doesn’t appear to be in the mood for negotiations or a ceasefire .

Glorianny when Gaza was handed over there was no blockade and there was water, fuel and the technology to make more of each. The blockade came years down the line,. Reeas back my post on the history.

Glorianny

vickya

Hamas has fuel but won't give it for hospital use. It's to use for the tunnels and to fire rockets at Israeli towns. Israelis are living in shelters. Their children are traumatised too.
Gaza was handed over to the Palestinians as a thriving area. Export of flowers had been the earner. Hamas destroyed the buildings and foliage. They began to attack Israeli areas and so fences were put up. They used the huge amount of funding they got to build tunnels and buy weapons. They ran welfare programmes at first and after they settled in put military installations under schools, hospitals etc, They do not want 2 states. Just one and no Jews. Fuel WAS sent in yesterday but some was taken by Hamas. Although the Palestinians said no fuel for the hospitals the rockets never stopped landing on Israel. Although some did land on Palestinian areas too, killing them.

You need to revise yur opinion on what was happening in Gaza. The country was under blockade by Israel. You cannot grow flowers without water. Israel controlled the water
This report in 2018 by Oxfam
www.oxfam.org/en/timeline-humanitarian-impact-gaza-blockade
The last paragraph calling on the international community to intervene in order to prevent an escalation and violence is especially touching.
This is where the roots of terrorism lie. They will not be eliminated through more persecution.

You keep returning to this theme of ‘economic health equating with happiness’ which of course only applies to reasonable people.
Hamas are not anything like that, nor are Hezbollah or the Taliban and so on.It’s an extreme ideology.

For any peace brokering, if they wanted it, hamas could return all the hostages as a start.At this stage on the war on hamas I don’t think Israel wants to even begin to think of entering into any talks and for sure neither does hamas.So that being the case most of hamas will be wiped out, all but the few who direct things from another country.
I don’t blame Israel one bit for refusing to have any dealings at all with hamas.They wanted a war with Israel and they’ve got it.Somehow I don’t think they’ll like it.

The blockade only occurred because weapons, drugs terrorists and more besides were being smuggled into Israel with the sole purpose of creating mayhem. Masses of aid has been allocated for Gaza in order to build it up, but so much has been siphoned off by Hamas in order to build up their arsenals, tunnels and fuel supplies, that projects such as desalination plants, electricity grid and so on have just never happened . Hamas have behaved with much cruelty to their own people in many ways. Surely that's some sort of crime ?

vickya

Glorianny when Gaza was handed over there was no blockade and there was water, fuel and the technology to make more of each. The blockade came years down the line,. Reeas back my post on the history.

1967-82 Israel occupied Gaza Gaza's agricultural sector was adversely affected as one-third of the Strip was appropriated by Israel, competition for scarce water resources stiffened, and the lucrative cultivation of citrus declined with the advent of Israeli policies, such as prohibitions on planting new trees and taxation that gave breaks to Israeli producers, factors which militated against growth. Gaza's direct exports of these products to Western markets, as opposed to Arab markets, was prohibited except through Israeli marketing vehicles, in order to assist Israeli citrus exports to the same markets. The overall result was that large numbers of farmers were forced out of the agricultural sector. Israel placed quotas on all goods exported from Gaza, while abolishing restrictions on the flow of Israeli goods into the Strip. Sara Roy characterised the pattern as one of structural de-development
Israel has never wanted Gaza to be an area of economic growth
After 2005
Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, as well as six of Gaza's seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[14] The extensive Israeli buffer zone within the Strip renders much land off-limits to Gaza's inhabitants.[91] The system of control imposed by Israel was described in the fall 2012 edition of International Security as an "indirect occupation"
So essentially Gaza has always been occupied.

Glorianny not forgetting the economic support to Gaza from Qatar and Turkey.
What a total mess.

Jaberwok

The blockade only occurred because weapons, drugs terrorists and more besides were being smuggled into Israel with the sole purpose of creating mayhem. Masses of aid has been allocated for Gaza in order to build it up, but so much has been siphoned off by Hamas in order to build up their arsenals, tunnels and fuel supplies, that projects such as desalination plants, electricity grid and so on have just never happened . Hamas have behaved with much cruelty to their own people in many ways. Surely that's some sort of crime ?

The syphoning off of aid by Hamas has been questioned. It has huge amounts offunding from Iran and some from South American countries. It also has many links with illegal activities and drug smuggling.
In an interview this month that appeared on Russia Today TV, senior Hamas official Ali Baraka said that “First and foremost, it is Iran that is giving us money and weapons.” Last year, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh told Al Jazeera that Iran paid $70 million to the group to support its defense plan.

In addition to Iran’s support, Hamas has long relied on funds from other ideological allies, including private donations and groups in Turkey, Kuwait and Malaysia, former U.S. counterterrorism officials said.

Funding information here www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099

Grany

Casdon

If they want a ceasefire why don’t Hammas hand back the Israeli hostages Grany?

That has to be done through diplomacy negotiations peacetalks on all sides war only makes more terrorists it solves nothing.

There will be a lot of diplomatic discussions already happening Grany. Or do you truly believe nothing happens until those you attack all say "we agree with Grany"; that nothing is going on behind closed doors, where possible?

Incidentally

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202311/medium-900038-dead.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202311/medium-443000-dead.jpg

Out of interest, did those who worry about Palestinians worry about these Arabs too? Did you post about it?

vickya

Out of interest, did those who worry about Palestinians worry about these Arabs too? Did you post about it?

Yes we have been petitioning the government not to supply arms to Saudi Arabia for use in the war in Yemen for some time.
We protested about Syria and the bombing.
As for the concept that Palestinians have equal rights
Amnesty says Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, successive governments have created and maintained a system of laws, policies, and practices designed to oppress and dominate Palestinians. This system plays out in different ways across the different areas where Israel exercises control over Palestinians’ rights, but the intent is always the same: to privilege Jewish Israelis at the expense of Palestinians
You can read how here
www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/.

I had a colleague ,a man who left Palestine after his family home was taken and his family thrown off the land they had farmed for a century or more.
He was a lovely man,quiet ,polite ,well mannered and respectful of the folk he worked with.
I listened to his story and I wept ,and then I joined the Scottish Support for Palestinian group and have donated and marched with them ever since .
Sadly there are many many like him and thankfully he and his wife have mad ea happy home here BUT they still have a diminishing number of relatives in Gaza..maybe not after this last onslaught of bombs.
These people are in the main innocent and we sit and watch while they are murdered .
NO other country on earth would get away with genocide and thats what Israel is committing .
I firmly stand by my friend and the tens of thousands like him
I stand with Palestine

paddyann54 does your Palestinian friend support the actions of Hamas?
Does your Palestinian friend weep for the loss of 1400 Israeli lives?
Does your Palestinian friend support the eradication of Israel by Hamas?

Glorianny I hadn’t realised the position Amnesty had taken over Israel until you kept posting it.
Israel regards Amnesty as anti Semitic and disregards everything it has to say. In the circumstances, Amnesty has no influence over the major player in this conflict and I am not sure what is Amnesty’s game plan? Amnesty is in danger of losing credibility on the world stage I believe. Israel will never listen to Amnesty from now on and so Amnesty is unable to act as any kind of go between. Probably even enflaming a very out of control battlefield….

ronib

paddyann54 does your Palestinian friend support the actions of Hamas?
Does your Palestinian friend weep for the loss of 1400 Israeli lives?
Does your Palestinian friend support the eradication of Israel by Hamas?

Isn't that a rather agressive post ronib?

Surely paddyann is only responsible for her own actions and may base those actions on what she choses.

DAR well some answers would help. It is a particularly aggressive topic and I am not taken in by the narratives on either side of the divide.

ronib

DAR well some answers would help. It is a particularly aggressive topic and I am not taken in by the narratives on either side of the divide.

What sort of answers could possibly be provided on this thread though? One conclusion I’ve reached is that, to return to the premise of the post, Starmer doesn’t have a dilemma, he will stick to the line he has taken. If the Labour left do manage to table a motion in parliament it won’t be successful because it isn’t the majority view, on the thread, or in parliament, or in the UK.

Well, paddyann54 does have a tendency to be quite assertive in her views over things, never giving credence for any other opinion. This can ruffle feathers. There are faults on both sides, that is without question, and the families, particularly children are suffering greatly on both sides. But when I think of those kidnapped people and what they must be going through, if indeed they're still alive, the babies and their parents whose murder is too horrific to think about, young children tied together and,,,,, young people running for their lives,being chased by maniacs, + the endless rockets, terrorist attacks,, and the promise of more to come until annihilation, I'm afraid on balance I support Israel. As for war crimes? Yes probably, on both sides. Putin in Ukraine anyone? now there is a war criminal, attacking a country without any provocation whatsoever. Does anyone really care? Probably not, but when its Israel defending itself from attack, the whole world goes up in flames! Anti semitism is always only just under the surface, and these events have certainly, unfortunately brought it out into the open once again.

Yes paddyann is telling us all how ASHAMED we should be in shouty capitals. I think people are following her lead.

Galaxy who is we?
We whoever we are did not agree to the wholesale slaughter of 1400 Israelis at a concert. We will never agree to it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffwj14t9PyY

For my own part I am appalled and heartbroken when I hear of the heinous crimes committed on 7/10, each piece of evidence is so much more serious than the previous.

I am deeply saddened by the deaths of innocent Palestinians. I am not in the least bit concerned about what is happening to Hamas operatives.

Whilst Hamas (in the name of Palestinians) continue to attack Israel and are committed to wiping every Jew from Israel and the Earth, they have lost any moral credibility.

Palestinians will never be free whilst the likes of Hamas walk the Earth.