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Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel

(449 Posts)
TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 06:06:23

"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"

A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,

"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.

Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.

Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.

In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"

foxie48 Sun 19-Nov-23 14:49:04

silverlining48

I agree with your post foxie and can still see the huge smile on Yasser Arafats face on the stage as he signed the peace accord. He went across to hug the Israeli president, (who was clearly reluctant) but Yasser Arafat kept smiling.

There is so much to know and understand and in the past we have often been told what our govts have wanted us to know. Still happens, of course, but at least with the internet we have access to so much more information (just need to sure of our sources!) I watched a series about the Irish civil war recently, I knew nothing about it and had no idea of the horror of what had happened. De Valera was a terrorist, didn't stop him from becoming Head of govt and Head of state, same with Nelson Mandela in South Africa. Who knows what is going to happen in Gaza and The West Bank but there will be no peace whilst Netanyahu is prime minister he is equally intransigent as Hamas. I find the situation so terribly sad as it's the Jewish and Palestinian people who bear the brunt of the violence. I notice Netanyahu's son has stayed in the US rather than rejoin the IDF. Such a tragic loss of life and to what end?

Namsnanny Sun 19-Nov-23 14:50:21

They(Israel) are only interested in expansion

Foxie46 Did Israel withdraw (give up rights to) from some land and remove their own citizens to do so in 2004-5-6 or 7-8?
I probably should look it up but someone will know the answer.

silverlining48 Sun 19-Nov-23 14:53:08

Gaza , but still kept control of movement and most everything else

foxie48 Sun 19-Nov-23 15:09:02

Israel gave the Sinai (which they had taken in the 1967 6 days war) back to Egypt following the 1979 peace agreement with Egypt in return for Egypt recognising Israel's right to exist. They also agreed to a small portion (5%) of the Golan Heights, which they took from Syria to be a used as a sort of buffer zone between Syria and Israel. I think both countries patrol it. I'm not aware of Israel giving land back apart from this but it doesn't mean they haven't. During the period that you mention they was a good deal of illegal land grabbing by the Israelis including an attempt to build a huge wall which encroached on Palestinian land which led to action by the world's courts which told Israel to take it down.

foxie48 Sun 19-Nov-23 15:12:56

silverlining48

Gaza , but still kept control of movement and most everything else

Israel removed it's settlers from Gaza but Gaza itself was considered Palestine, not that that counted for much.

Fleurpepper Sun 19-Nov-23 17:38:36

In the meantime- the Palestinians who were told to somehow move to the South to be safe- and did so, now living in terrible overcrowding, without food, water, medicine, etc - are being bombed.

this is genocide, nothing less.

foxie48 Sun 19-Nov-23 18:05:07

A very thought provoking programme on Radio 4 (Today) at 17.00 , it was rather depressing in terms of talking about what Gaza will be like when this madness stops but some interesting suggestions about what might bring about peace. Trump's Abraham Accords for the Middle East was mentioned as having had a detrimental effect as it left Palestine completely out of the picture and possibly led to Hamas taking action. What was said by all on the panel is that any solution must give Palestinians a future or there will never be security for Israel. I have to agree.

Iam64 Sun 19-Nov-23 18:06:51

I’ve found radio 4 gives the best coverage of this awful war

Callistemon21 Sun 19-Nov-23 18:12:00

merlotgran

^UK military is refusing to divulge what the dozens of aircraft it has sent to Israel are carrying onboard.^

No shit!

This is a war situation. Some people are expecting far too much divulgence. It’s not a game.

One moment Grany posts an aircraft, next moment it is dozens 🤔

Perhaps the medical supplies we saw being taken into Gaza?

silverlining48 Sun 19-Nov-23 18:12:25

I have r4 on nearly all day and when I don’t sleep a lot of the night too.

GrannyGravy13 Sun 19-Nov-23 18:23:56

31 premature babies have been taken from Al Shifa Hospital to Egypt by UN personal.

Sky has video footage of tunnel entrance under the hospital linking to other tunnels.
It is awaiting independent investigations.

Callistemon21 Sun 19-Nov-23 18:24:33

Its very easy to call out anyone who criticises Israel as antisemitic ...its not so .Being anti Israeli government AND anti IDF given their treatment of Palestinians for decades ...is justified .Ask any of the many Jews who march WITH the Scottish solidarity with Palestine groups ...or are thinking ,empathetic jews now antisemitic too?
Well, that's what I was trying to say, *paddyann^

Jewish people the world over are being blamed for the actions of the Israeli Government.

However, it doesn't seem to be the case that Palestinians or Muslims worldwide are being blamed for the actions of Hamas.

GrannyGravy13 Sun 19-Nov-23 18:30:59

So true Callistemon21

Iam64 Sun 19-Nov-23 18:50:28

Yes indeed Callistemon, anti semitism is so well embedded into society, it’s often ‘not seen’ by the people who casually repeat anti semitic tropes

Whitewavemark2 Sun 19-Nov-23 19:13:25

There are two conversations going on here.

There is dismay and condemnation of the Israeli state and its excessive actions, as well as Hamas and its evil actions.

And then there is a conversation about anti-semitism, and anti-Islam.

It is a shame to muddle the two

foxie48 Sun 19-Nov-23 19:19:05

Callistemon21 the problem is as I see it, is that people see and hear the news and they react to that without really understanding the complexity of the situation and it goes on because it continues day after day on the various media it is stoking hatred. There was a backlash against Muslims following the atrocities in the US and then later here in London, but it didn't go on day after day. Just the same, there was a backlash against anyone who was Irish or had an Irish sounding name after the Birmingham bombings but it was short lived because it wasn't in the media with graphic pictures and commentary, day after day. Sadly we are reaping the rewards of constant access to the news + all the websites and twitter accounts that are continually reminding us of events in Israel and Gaza. Racism in all it's forms is based on ignorance, the ability to see other people as different and of less value and unfortunately once people show any bias they are continously bombarded with more fuel for their fire.

Callistemon21 Sun 19-Nov-23 20:25:30

Whitewavemark2

There are two conversations going on here.

There is dismay and condemnation of the Israeli state and its excessive actions, as well as Hamas and its evil actions.

And then there is a conversation about anti-semitism, and anti-Islam.

It is a shame to muddle the two

Difficult, because the OP stated
"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"

So sides needs definition.

Galaxy Sun 19-Nov-23 20:51:25

It is impossible because I am afraid it is antisemitism which is leading to the denial of what has happened in Israel.

Fleurpepper Sun 19-Nov-23 20:59:34

Whitewavemark2

There are two conversations going on here.

There is dismay and condemnation of the Israeli state and its excessive actions, as well as Hamas and its evil actions.

And then there is a conversation about anti-semitism, and anti-Islam.

It is a shame to muddle the two

I get your point, thank you.

And yet, they are so so closely related, in so many ways.

Elegran Mon 20-Nov-23 10:05:19

Galaxy

It is impossible because I am afraid it is antisemitism which is leading to the denial of what has happened in Israel.

I can't answer for anyone else, but personally I am NOT in denial of the actions of Hamas that have happened in Israel. Nor am I antisemitic - how could I be with a much-loved Jewish daughter-in-law and a knowledge of the many areas where Jews have been picked out for abuse and discrimination?

I criticise Hamas for such a crass demonstration of what they are capable of. However the Israeli invasion is not exempt from criticism here.

What I criticise is the way in which Israel has not used the law to find, arrest and bring to justice the perpetrators of the crime and those who planned it. Instead they are laying waste to the whole areas where Palestinians are living, killing far more than were killed by Hamas, and hounding the inhabitants from one area to another, following them to where they told them to go to avoid the bombs.

That is as though the reaction to an IRA bomb in a crowded London street was to send planes to Dublin to flatten the buildings and kill thousands of Irish people. At the height of the IRA campaign, that did not happen. It would be retaliation taken to extremes, and does not draw a line under the event - survivors just become more polarised. Punish the wrongdoers, not innocent citizens.

Many others on this thread are saying the same thing.

Glorianny Mon 20-Nov-23 10:11:09

Galaxy

It is impossible because I am afraid it is antisemitism which is leading to the denial of what has happened in Israel.

So are the Jews marching in New York anti-semites?

maddyone Mon 20-Nov-23 10:13:01

How were the Israelis going to be able to use the law to bring the perpetrators of 7/10 to justice? They are squirrelled away directly under Gaza in miles of tunnels that they have created using money given as relief to the citizens of Gaza. Whilst I agree that it would be preferable to what is happening now if it was possible, I think it naive to suggest that the law could be used to bring the murderers of 7/10 to justice.

Fleurpepper Mon 20-Nov-23 10:25:53

Thank you Elegran.

And can anyone imagine if the people of Ireland were told to all move to, say, the South region to be safe- bombed on the way, then those who made it there, somehow, and living without food, clean water or medicines, etc - were then ... bombed.

maddyone, I actually agree with you. But what will be the long term consequences of those actions. The whole world is watching, and the whole world and balances of power are changing. Even if they manage to get rid of every single Hamas member- what is happening will create many many many more- there, and all over the region and parts of the world.

And the damage it is doing also, to Jewish people, in Israel and again, all over the world.

maddyone Mon 20-Nov-23 10:35:35

I also agree with you Fleurpepper in that future terrorists are being created as we speak. And also that damage is being done to Jewish people around the world by what is happening now, although in reality, no one who lives in Britain, America, or wherever is in any way responsible for what is happening in Israel, and anti semitic blaming is unacceptable.

Callistemon21 Mon 20-Nov-23 10:35:41

Even if they manage to get rid of every single Hamas member
Which they won't because the leaders are in Doha, others will be amongst the civilian population and, as you say, more will join.
Like trying to destroy the Hydra.