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Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel

(449 Posts)
TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 06:06:23

"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"

A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,

"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.

Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.

Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.

In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"

silverlining48 Sun 19-Nov-23 08:54:27

I watched aljazerra news last night where clear footage was shown of the dead children in the school bombed by Israel. Truly horrific.

12000 dead in 5 weeks, most of these women and children.

Why is it so hard to criticise israel? Why do we feel guilty doing so? Because we are afraid of being accused of antisemitism.? Yet being a critical friend is sometimes necessary and important.
I love my children but know that if they ever did something wrong I could not make excuses for them.

Callistemon21 Sun 19-Nov-23 09:55:10

Why is it so hard to criticise israel?

I think because the criticism seems to take the form of anti-semitism against Jews the world over, rather than criticising the actions of the Israeli Government.

No-one seems to do this with the Palestinian people - the blame is laid firmly on Hamas.

There's the difference.

Fleurpepper Sun 19-Nov-23 10:48:19

Callistemon21

^Why is it so hard to criticise israel^?

I think because the criticism seems to take the form of anti-semitism against Jews the world over, rather than criticising the actions of the Israeli Government.

No-one seems to do this with the Palestinian people - the blame is laid firmly on Hamas.

There's the difference.

No-one here has criticised Jews the world over- no-one.

Silverlining48, I totally agree with you. Many of my Jewish friends have been massively criticial of Netanyahu and what is happening since the horrific attacks by Hamas. Jewish friends are aghast at the current attacks on families, communities, mosques, all over the West Bank as well, and the misuse of the current situation for more land grabs.

However, the difficulty comes when some in the Jewish community support Netanyahu's diabolical actions. If they support him 100% and refuse to see that atrocities are being committed right now- then I am afraid, they do become part of it.

I have said the same to Muslim family and friends in the past - when atrocities are committed in the name of Islam.

Fleurpepper Sun 19-Nov-23 10:50:36

Currently, vidoes of Jewish groups of people chanting and calling for the total destruction of Palestinian people, laughing Israeli soldiers asking to video each other sending grenades in Mosques full of praying people, of shootings of civilians and destructions of their houses, etc - and in the West Bank, not Gaza.

Callistemon21 Sun 19-Nov-23 10:51:56

No-one here has criticised Jews the world over- no-one

I was speaking generally.

If you haven't noticed the rise in anti-semitism then I am surprised.

Callistemon21 Sun 19-Nov-23 10:53:11

No-one here has criticised Jews the world over- no-one

Some posts have been deleted as anti-semitic, I believe.

maddyone Sun 19-Nov-23 10:58:41

I’m surprised too. News reports are telling us almost daily about he rise in antisemitic incidents in this country. Have they gone unnoticed by some?

Callistemon21 Sun 19-Nov-23 11:02:46

I don't think some people realise when they are being anti-semitic, it is an unconscious bias.
However, the rise in hate is worrying.

maddyone Sun 19-Nov-23 11:07:38

I agree.
Are the marches going to carry on happening every weekend?
There were also marches midweek last week.
Jewish people must be very afraid.

Grany Sun 19-Nov-23 11:21:11

Declassified UK

@declassifiedUK

47m
🚨 Yesterday afternoon an A400M military transport aircraft—operated by RAF—landed in Tel Aviv.

It can carry 116 soldiers, a Chinook heli + a payload of 37 tonnes.

UK military is refusing to divulge what the dozens of aircraft it has sent to Israel are carrying onboard.

See UK as well as USA is supporting Genocide in Gaza
Why do we rely on arms sales to states to commit atrocities

We send arms to Saudi Arabia to kill millions of people in Yemen.

Couldn’t we be a country stand for peace make new jobs for a Green technology

Galaxy Sun 19-Nov-23 11:21:59

A poster on here(cheered on by others) said that starmer could not be trusted on this issue because his wife was Jewish. The same thing that the members of the protest were saying outside Starmers office.

merlotgran Sun 19-Nov-23 11:26:30

UK military is refusing to divulge what the dozens of aircraft it has sent to Israel are carrying onboard.

No shit!

This is a war situation. Some people are expecting far too much divulgence. It’s not a game.

Grany Sun 19-Nov-23 11:28:44

People are rightly upset who wouldn’t be about babies dying in hospitals the ongoing genocide.

Starmer Labour Party could have not whipped his Amal’s to abstain he could have allowed them a free vote like he did with Ukraine

Starmer calls himself a Zionist without qualification thought that bit odd thing thing to say, but he is funded by the a Israel lobby group.

Grany Sun 19-Nov-23 11:29:43

His MPs

GrannyGravy13 Sun 19-Nov-23 11:30:10

Grany the U.K. has military on the border between Israel and Lebanon, they are there as part of the Blue Berets observers

GrannyGravy13 Sun 19-Nov-23 11:31:42

Grany

People are rightly upset who wouldn’t be about babies dying in hospitals the ongoing genocide.

Starmer Labour Party could have not whipped his Amal’s to abstain he could have allowed them a free vote like he did with Ukraine

Starmer calls himself a Zionist without qualification thought that bit odd thing thing to say, but he is funded by the a Israel lobby group.

Sir Starmer’s wife is Jewish, their children are being raised in the Jewish faith.

maddyone Sun 19-Nov-23 11:37:06

Since Jewish people are afraid in Britain at the moment, it wouldn’t surprise me if Keir Starmer is also afraid. Afraid for his wife and children, and possibly for himself.
It takes guts to do what he’s doing, which is supporting the government line, given his high profile.

Fleurpepper Sun 19-Nov-23 11:38:16

Callistemon21

^No-one here has criticised Jews the world over- no-one^

I was speaking generally.

If you haven't noticed the rise in anti-semitism then I am surprised.

Of course I have noticed. And as my Jewish friends say, nothing but nothing will cause more antisemitism and fear for Jewish people, than what Netanyahu is doing at the moment.

The rise in Islamophobia in Israel, and around some parts of the world, is rising too. Attacks on Palestinians in Gaza, but also in the West Bank, in Jerusalem and all over Israel- land grabs, destruction of houses, villages, shooting any young man for just being Palestinian, and so much more. They do not appear on the News in UK.

The two, go 'hand in hand'- an eye for an eye and the whole world becomes blind. (Ghandi).

paddyann54 Sun 19-Nov-23 12:01:49

Its very easy to call out anyone who criticises Israel as antisemitic ...its not so .Being anti Israeli government AND anti IDF given their treatment of Palestinians for decades ...is justified .Ask any of the many Jews who march WITH the Scottish solidarity with Palestine groups ...or are thinking ,empathetic jews now antisemitic too?
But hey hang everyones opinions on the same hook because we are not allowed to speak freely about Israel ,the thousands of Palestinians in Israels jails ,the kids shot dead for throwing stones etc etc .
this is GENOCIDE ,Israel is daily committing war crimes against innocent people .Take off your blinkers and see reality

Barmeyoldbat Sun 19-Nov-23 12:24:06

Paddyanne you are saying exactly how I feel.

Galaxy Sun 19-Nov-23 12:24:12

I gave an example of your antisemitic remark which was deleted.

Namsnanny Sun 19-Nov-23 12:48:07

But we are not allowed to speak freely about Israel .....

That is exactly what you are doing, Pann54

maddyone Sun 19-Nov-23 13:08:55

Namsnanny

^But we are not allowed to speak freely about Israel^ .....

That is exactly what you are doing, Pann54

Exactly.

foxie48 Sun 19-Nov-23 13:42:45

Biden is starting to harden his support particularly in relation to what is happening in The West Bank. The US is the only country Netanyahu will listen to.
fwiw I think people sometimes forget that Israel is built on terrorism and that frequently the terrorists of today become the leaders and statesmen of the future. Ben-Gurion, Menachem Begin and Yitzak Shamir, all prime ministers and all were involved in terrorist activities prior to becoming PM. Begin and Shamir never visited the UK because they were still on the wanted list. Netanyahu opposed the Oslo Accord and when Yitzhak Rabin who was PM and signed the agreement was assassinated by an Israeli extremist, Netanyahu was seen by some to be complicit. It didn't stop him from becoming PM and dismantling as much as he could of the agreement. It is of interest that Yasser Arafat, long held to be a wanted terrorist was present at the signing and the PLO was recognised by Israel and the US. Of course, none of this in any way excuses the atrocities committed by Hamas but there have been atrocities committed by both sides and I have no problem in stating that the state of Israel is committing war crimes and will continue doing so until the very last possible moment because their leaders are not interested in peace, they are interested in expansion.

silverlining48 Sun 19-Nov-23 14:31:33

I agree with your post foxie and can still see the huge smile on Yasser Arafats face on the stage as he signed the peace accord. He went across to hug the Israeli president, (who was clearly reluctant) but Yasser Arafat kept smiling.