Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel

"M0nica" that's really interesting thank you. Of course I know the story of Christ. But had no idea about the money lending

Very few Jews became money lenders or bankers. That's a common stereotype. Most of the Jews in Europe who were killed in the holocaust were relatively poor artisans and were becoming increasingly secular.

It was illegal for Christians to lend money with interest in medieval times. The Jewish faith never had that restriction.

During the 15th century this restriction was relaxed, but usury was forbidden by all the major faiths.

But that still involved only a few Jews. In most countries, they weren't allowed to hold offices of state, but the majority lived ordinary lives, mainly as small business owners because there was discrimination against employing them. The majority of Jews killed in the holocaust were relatively poor.

Of course - given the level of Jewish population in any one country, they, just like the population as a whole followed a wide variety of the means to make a living. I was merely pointing out that if they had the means and inclination to do so they could lend money at a reasonable rate, because their religion placed no restriction on this activity.

I am, though, talking about the medieval historical position.

As far as the last century is concerned I see no reason to think that the Jewish population did not reflect the population as a whole - from the vastly wealthy to the homeless.

growtuff i was talking about the period 100AD to about 1200AD, a period ending nearly 1,000 years ago. Things do change!

Most of the Russian Jews were certainly farmers and artisans, but in the 18th and 19th century international banking in Europe was dominated by the great Jewish banking houses.

Nathan Rothschild was very nearly as important to British success in the Penninsula War, and the successful European campaign that culminated in the victory at Waterloo as was Wellington. Hen got pay for the troops to the Penninsula.

I recommend this article for your reading. Jewish Financiers in the City of London: Reality versus Rhetoric, 1830 – 1914 www.academicresearchjournals.org/ARJHC/PDF/2015/January/Michie.pdf

There is a difference between numbers and dominance.

Which takes us neatly back to the Russian Zionists, Rothschild and Balfour and the beginning of the Palestinian issue.

Banking houses might have been dominated by Jews, but that still doesn't mean that most Jews were bankers.

Anti-Judaism/antisemitism has for centuries been fed by myths and conspiracy theories ("fake news" isn't a modern phenomenon). People have always been tribal and needed scapegoats.

I'm not sure that most Jews killed in the Holocaust were relatively poor. Research has shown that the Jewish share of private capital in Germany was slightly higher than the average at the time. Of course, between the two wars, and during world war two itself, the Nazis repeatedly put forward the fake claim that Jews owned up to 20 percent of all wealth in Germany. I think they only made up 1% of the population at this time, so we can understand why they became so unpopular. They were being unfairly used as a scapegoat because Germany was in huge economic difficulty after WW1.
Added to their supposed monetary wealth, Jews in Germany also possessed many valuable paintings and gold jewellery. Many were art dealers and owned galleries. Artworks were used as a form of currency at the time, so Jews were regarded as moneylenders or shylocks in this respect, and hence were disliked by their fellow men.
WWM2 touched on an interesting point, that if they have the means and inclination, Jews are clever at making things work for them.

I’ve just found this thread. Thanks TerriBull for starting it and for your contributions.
Anti semitism is as old as time. When I was 11 , I saw tv coverage of the liberation of the concentration camps. My mum answered my questions by saying many blamed the Jewish people for killing Christ.
The best history of Jewish people I’ve seen is set out in the Holocaust museum in Berlin. It details pogroms in Europe/Russia/Britain/USA
Thanks again for starting this discussion TerriBull.

Should I be horrified and disgusted that November 11th should be used by ANY group actually calling for PEACE????

The demonstrations should be for peace NOT in support of Palestinians, there should be no Palestinian or Israeli flags to be seen.

I state categorically there will be no peace while any armed group is allowed to hide weapons amongst the population of Gaza, Israel will always hit back, it is Hamas that chooses to use civilians as a shield to pursue their aim of destruction of Israel.

Joseann Most Jews killed in the Holocaust were Polish. Most were poor.

You seem to have fallen for the Nazi propaganda.

Katie59

The demonstrations should be for peace NOT in support of Palestinians, there should be no Palestinian or Israeli flags to be seen.

I state categorically there will be no peace while any armed group is allowed to hide weapons amongst the population of Gaza, Israel will always hit back, it is Hamas that chooses to use civilians as a shield to pursue their aim of destruction of Israel.

Totally agree

I too agree

Absolutely, and as I said in an earlier post. Any armed group that instructs its members to go out and slaughter civilians and dismember young children and babies as a first tactic in an armed conflict automatically puts itself beyond any justification for its actions.

I haven't fallen for anything, growstuff. I see this as a safe thread where we can ask questions and examine our own feelings. Inevitably it will go off in different directions according to our experiences.

My Jewish father and grandfather were stockbrokers, my uncle owned his business in agricultural machinery. I remember that making more and more money always seemed to be the Number 1 purpose, and this money was often squirreled away and not shared. Records show that many Jews carefully hid their wealth in WW2 Germany.

Nobody said most Jews are bankers, but that they were dominant in the banking industry and the money lending industry before that is not arguable.

Their dominance in financial markets was widely used as another weapon against them. Read any literature of the 19th, 20th century, Anthony Trollope, Dickens, even John Buchan who was not anti-semitic in his life and the jews are presented as evil and their evilness is shown by their involvement in arcane financial affairs and money lending.

No one is defending this anti-semitism, but, however wrong stereotypes may be they feed into and form societal attitudes to different groups.

I am from an army family who happen also to be Roman Catholics and, even as a child, I constantly came across the assured belief that catholic soldiers could not be trusted because they would always obey any instructions that came from the Pope first, even if they conflicted with military orders.

That this is nonsense is obvious, but even after 2 World Wars and hundreds of years of the British Army always having a lot of Irish soldiers in its ranks, without any conflict of loyalties arising, Yet, in the 1950s &60s. this beleif was common.

Therefore it is not surprising that these beleifs about the Jews and banking live on, especially when they can be used as a stick to beat them.

growstuff

Joseann Most Jews killed in the Holocaust were Polish. Most were poor.

Yes, over half the total number I believe?

I think my parents, in spite of being catholic, and we know the dark history the church contained, did at least always imbue me with the notion that Jewish people in spite of being a small minority of the population, tended to punch above their weight in a diversity of talents and I always felt they had an admiration for them as a people, they admired for example as well as other well known Jewish high profile personalities, Jacob Bronoski, when watching that programme he, did "The Ascent of Man", which I imagine went over my head at the time, I remember them saying "He's a very intelligent man, Jewish, so many of them are clever and talented" possibly a blanket statement but they grew up in a time of "the greats of Hollywood" directors, composers, writers, actors who were well represented by Jewish talent. In retrospect, something I find amusing, when they were watching a film, mentioning a writer, composer or some personality on the telly, they would always seem to know who was either catholic or Jewish as if only those two factions mattered from their point of view, my wider family did it too, peculiar to us maybe, I think they were a bit weirdly off the wall sometimes. Recently when I was watching the film "Oppenheimer" and learning he was Jewish as indeed many of his physicist colleagues were, I couldn't help thinking all that talent that Hitler and his Nazi cohorts would have wiped out, how they thought they were the master race God only knows, mere mortals like the rest of the human race in fact just a bunch of wicked oafs with a warped sense of their own importance.

My parents didn't really talk about the Holocaust but I do remember my mother saying how very affected she'd been by reading the diary of Anne Frank, I also remember her telling me how horrified she was when the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and couldn't get over it for ages, she strongly felt that the Japanese people didn't deserve it. I know she fretted over horrible world events, I guess that's where I get it from. My dad, although mainly in Libya during the war years, also visited Palestine during that time, I found a letter when going through drawers after his death, that he wrote to my grandmother telling her what a profound experience being there was, and when I visited Israel back in the early eighties they, my parents went again the year after, I remember my mother saying then, "your father really wants to go back there"

When I started my ancestry research at the behest of my mother to find out just where in Ireland the Irish side of the family emanated from, after that I said to her "lets do the other side" you had that French surname tell me about your grandfather" "he was very foreign, and quite Victorian was her riposte" but gradually we pieced more and more about his life, for example he had a clothing factory, and he is quaintly shown on my grandparents' marriage certificate as a "mantle manufacturer" which is kind of text book Jewish, but at that time I was yet to discover that and too late for my mother to have found that her beloved father was half Jewish, I like to think and I'm quite sure she would have been pleased to know that was part of her ancestry.

I think I knew growing up there was a general sort of sniffiness towards the Jewish population, but my mother said people could be sniffy about catholics too when she was a child. I do remember this wonderful exchange in the film "An education" which maybe exemplifies those attitudes. Carey Mulligan's character, a schoolgirl, pulled up before her headmistress played by Emma Thompson who admonished her with this "You're going out with an older man who is a Jew what would Our Lord say" Carey Mulligan "Our Lord was a Jew" Some people seem to skirt over that fact, never more so in how Jesus is depicted in art, fair haired and blue eyed and Aryan, Complete denial he'd have been brown eyed and swarthy and of very Middle Eastern appearance.

Joseann

My Jewish father and grandfather were stockbrokers, my uncle owned his business in agricultural machinery. I remember that making more and more money always seemed to be the Number 1 purpose, and this money was often squirreled away and not shared.

Shared with whom?

What you describe could be attributed to anyone of any faith or race.

About three million of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were Polish. The other three million came from all the other countries occupied by the Nazis. My understanding from my reading and travels is that many Polish Jews were poor, but many had small farms and some built up viable businesses from the farming, which often made the also poor Catholic population resentful, leading to their acceptance of the Jews being removed by the Nazis. Other Jews in Poland had businesses in the towns and cities. The Jews were increasingly becoming professional although as numbers were restricted at the universities, it was a difficult path to becoming a doctor or lawyer. Nonetheless some did.
My impression from my reading is that Jewish families in many of the other occupied states were relatively comfortable and/or professional. Many had their own businesses, hence on Crystal Night we saw the Star of David drawn on shop and business windows if they were owned by Jews. Everyone knows the story of Anne Frank, and their’s was a typical, comfortable middle class family. The family moved from Germany to Holland because of increasing antisemitism in Germany. The father had his own business and employees and it was sufficiently successful to enable the family to live for two years in hiding, with the practical help from their employees.
Many Jewish people are successful. They work hard and become successful, but certainly in the past, there were many very poor Jewish families in Poland, Russia, Belarus, and other Eastern European countries. Many were poor here in Britain when they escaped the pogroms and settled here.

You are claiming that there was a rational reason for people to hate Jews ie. they were jealous of their success. There wasn't a reason. It was visceral racism and scapegoating of "others".