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Israel/Palestine - To think this is how I feel

(449 Posts)
TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 06:06:23

"Britons despair of violence instead of taking sides"

A head line from yesterday's Sunday Times who printed the results of of a YouGov Poll with possibly an interesting statistic of the different age demographics and how they are lined up in their support of the opposing sides in this terrible conflict. I'm focusing here on the middle ground headed up where sympathies lie,

"Both sides equally" as follows: 18-24 17%, 25-49 28%, 50-64 39%, 65 plus 37% Possibly that response of the older generation, could be argued reflects the more measured attitude of knowing that, as with most conflicts, there are two sides and situations are generally more nuanced than the superficial black and white.

Hamas attack on the defenceless citizens of Israel was the stuff of nightmares, there was a headline, a few days ago in particular, as to what was inflicted on babies which I wish I'd never seen, but once read cannot be unread. This was premeditated, barbaric in the worst possible sense, enough to think "we've come so far in how mankind has developed, but something like this happens and we might just as well be back in ancient times" We know there is another side, The Palestinians have undoubtedly been treated most unfairly, but nothing justifies the brutality that was meted out that day.

Now the Jewish communities of the western world are having the full force of the hatred of the Israeli government well and truly dumped on them. Why? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG! they are communities like the rest of us just peacefully trying to go about their daily lives. Stars of David have been daubed on Jewish houses, businesses, within their communities in Germany and France and to a lesser extent here, all resonant of previous nightmare times Jewish people lived through. The other day a Jewish woman in Lyon was stabbed, how much worse is this all going to get, it's unbelievably depressing that one community can be so unfairly reviled in this way. What of the pro Palestinian marches, whilst I accept many marching are doing just that supporting Palestine, there are equally plenty of agitators and Hamas supporters. Posters pin pointed have shown comments such as these "make this a Jew free world" "Rid the world of the Jews" the hate is there in full force, once again for the umpteenth time they are being "othered" singled out, attacked, blamed, just to be Jewish is to be conflated with whatever the government of Israel is doing. The demonstrations are becoming more and more aggressive in their stance, should they for example be allowed to occupy the concourses of London train terminals, where commuters have to pass through that throng, and if Jewish, I imagine that could be alarming as it was on the tube train recently, when the train driver, who I hope was sacked, decided to initiate a completely inappropriate support Palestine chant amongst commuters on his train. Some of those demonstrating aren't doing it in that passive, dopey way of say Just Stop Oil, it's full on vitriol on the part of some militants, less about support of one faction and more about haranguing our Jewish community. IMO they should not be allowed to occupy areas where the general public have to pass through and the police should do more to arrest those that are overtly committing hate crimes against Jewish people.

In summary, another heartbreaking headline in yesterday's paper from Palestinian Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish "An Israeli shell killed three of my girls, but hate will only prolong the horror"

Joseann Mon 06-Nov-23 14:54:11

the march was never going anywhere near the Cenotaph I know London is a big place, but if the demonstrators cross the Thames at Millbank they are pretty close (5 minutes) to Whitehall. It's the aftermath that is dangerous, like on the tube and in the neighbouring streets.

TerriBull Mon 06-Nov-23 14:57:26

Like you Joseann, recently found out through Ancestry DNA that my paternal grandfather was half Jewish, that side emanated from Alsace, my mother's maiden name was French. I thought for a long time they were possibly Huguenots no evidence of them being catholic like the majority in France. I so wish my mum was still here to have let her know that, both my parents were very catholic I imagine they would have found that quite a surprise.!

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 15:13:40

Unfortunately the police and the powers that be are terrified of one particular community and what has always bothered me is why is there so much blame placed onto the British and the west in general, and excuses made by the liberal left when Muslim terrorists attack us? Look how they have taken to the streets over this. Why are Muslims only bothered about other Muslims? Why aren’t they hurt and upset when non Muslims are being killed. Why don’t they take to the streets when Isis, Iran, The Taliban et al are butchering Muslims? They hate the west.

I 100% agree with curtaintwitcher.

We’ve allowed unfettered immigration into this country, mostly Muslim. We’ve encouraged immigrants to follow their own culture even though it clashes with our own and like sheep many still won’t say or do anything because they’re too cowed or brainwashed. I won’t lie, I’m terrified for my grandchildren.

westendgirl Mon 06-Nov-23 15:27:53

Ticking bird you have made some unsupported claims here and I find much of what you say quite divisive. Then some of the government do not help by their rhetoric , aiming to stir up division.

We have to learn to live together , in peace and with tolerance.
Terribull thank you for your calm, measured posts, expressing what I feel.

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 15:33:08

westendgirl

You illustrate my point beautifully but it’s not me you should be addressing your second paragraph to.

Ilovecheese Mon 06-Nov-23 15:47:41

But tickingbird your comment was divisive.

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 15:49:08

Ilovecheese

According to you. Some would say truthful and reasonable.

MerylStreep Mon 06-Nov-23 16:50:11

I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

Oreo Mon 06-Nov-23 16:53:47

tickingbird

Ilovecheese

According to you. Some would say truthful and reasonable.

I would say your comments are truthful and reasonable, this country has got itself into a real mess through immigration.
Why oh why do governments and police treat a certain section with kid gloves?

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 17:09:06

Meryl Streep
I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

That’s enough to make me weep.

Like Saddam, Gadaffi, Mugabe etc. Living obscenely wealthy lives whilst their people rot in poverty.

maddyone Mon 06-Nov-23 17:52:34

tickingbird I pray that your grandchildren will be able to live in peace and harmony in the UK, but I fear it may not be the case sadly. I’m afraid for all our Jewish people in this country at the moment. I’m saddened, greatly, by the hatred on our streets every weekend. And make no mistake, what we are witnessing is hatred. What have we come to?

MerylStreep Mon 06-Nov-23 17:52:54

I wonder how much this hotel costs per night.

maddyone Mon 06-Nov-23 17:54:10

Meryl words fail me.

Callistemon21 Mon 06-Nov-23 17:55:56

MerylStreep

I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

The world needs to know.

Is this where aid money went?

GrannyGravy13 Mon 06-Nov-23 17:57:39

Callistemon21

MerylStreep

I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

The world needs to know.

Is this where aid money went?

Well it definitely didn’t go to the Palestinian civilians of Gaza.

merlotgran Mon 06-Nov-23 17:58:12

TerriBull

Having got up at stupid o'clock this morning to come to this forum with my thoughts, as so much of this often on my mind, I went back to bed and returning now . Of course there are several threads on the subject already so at the risk of going over well trodden ground, I suppose my thoughts are very much reflected by many of us who feel the despair of violence without wanting to take sides. I'm nevertheless haunted by the fact that babies, children the old and defenceless were harmed in a pre meditated and brutal way, a deliberate act of callousness, without trying to suggest that The Palestinian people are in any way deserving of the retributions they are experiencing.

Whilst I'm not suggesting that everyone who marches with the pro Palestinians are doing so to intimidate our Jewish community, I strongly believe there are those who do just that and are spoiling for a fight. I think allowing a march on Armistice Day is inappropriate and has all the potential of spilling over into violence. I hate! hate! the way the Jewish community are being scapegoated and forced to live under a cloak of fear and to wonder if this is going to end in history repeating itself for the umpteenth time, are we not better than that now, have we not moved on at all? sad How would any of us feel if we were part of the Jewish population and possibly feel the police and powers that be are not doing enough to protect them.

👏👏👏

varian Mon 06-Nov-23 18:09:05

Would the world not be a better place if we all listened to Hope Not Hate?

hopenothate.org.uk/

Joseann Mon 06-Nov-23 18:10:33

GrannyGravy13

Callistemon21

MerylStreep

I pray that no one in Gaza see how their leaders are living

The world needs to know.

Is this where aid money went?

Well it definitely didn’t go to the Palestinian civilians of Gaza.

That's what is so sad and frustrating. With all the aid and support pouring in, the inhabitants of Gaza could, over the years, have had it all - a prospering, peaceful land. But the money was all being squandered on missiles, weapons and fancy lifestyles.

growstuff Mon 06-Nov-23 18:13:57

tickingbird

Ilovecheese

According to you. Some would say truthful and reasonable.

And some would say divisive.

You have made it clear that you object to discrimination against Jews and I would agree with you. However, you are prepared to stereotype another group, which is often discriminated against.

I really do despair.

Jackiest Mon 06-Nov-23 18:20:50

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Anniebach Mon 06-Nov-23 18:26:26

A sensitive thread has become yet another hatred thread

tickingbird Mon 06-Nov-23 19:04:15

I’m not stereotyping any group. I’m asking why a community is so feared and pandered to. That’s a valid question and one which many commentators from all parties has voiced of late. It’s not about Israel and Palestine; it’s about the UK and what has been allowed to happen.

M0nica Mon 06-Nov-23 19:54:38

I am absolutely not attacking multiculturism, but I am saying that as a country we are getting very like the emperor with his new clothes, because we want to believe something we do aand ignore all the evidence that indicates when it is going wrong.

Take Suella Bravaman and her belief that if you sleep on the streets in a tent, it is a lifestyle choice. Presumably if you are really homeless you will sleep outside without a tent and would turn one down if offered.

We do too much of this sort of thinking and it that that is feeding the current wave of anti-semitism.

Biscuitmuncher Mon 06-Nov-23 21:33:49

I'm going to York in a few weeks so I thought I'd read up on the place. In 1190 there was a Jewish massacre. Why have they always been so hated

M0nica Mon 06-Nov-23 23:06:47

Biscuitmuncher they have always been so hated because in a Eurocentric world that became entirely Christian - and we are talking from roughly the 3th century, the Jews were blamed for the torure and crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Had the Jews remained living in Palestine, this would, with time, have faded, but a complex history starting in the 1st centuries BC and AD with the Roman wars and occupation began a period where the Jews were driven into exile. This continued in various forms until the Muslim invasions of the 6th and 7th centuries AD.

But although the Jews left Judea, they held tenatiously to their religious beliefs and culture, rather as many muslims do in exile now. In a Christian world where they now lived their connection with the death of Jesus Christ, meant they were hated and laws were past limiting their ability to own land or cultivate it or join in the activties of the main population. The one area they were allowed into was money dealing - and many became goldsmiths, later bankers, And we all know what people think of bankers. Combine this with the connection, in a Christian world with the death of Jesus and you have a tixic mix.

Kings and rulers borrowed from the Jews to pay for wars and personal extravagance - and when the debts became onerous, these kings and rulers turned on the Jews and killed them and drove them out of the country, saving themselves from the embarraasment of having to pay their debts

I have been on a steep learning curve writing this post and for anyone who wants to know more, I cannot recommend too highly the Wikipedia article on the subject. I have learnt a lot
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel