So pleased to see hostages being released.

Elegran

The two are not either/or supports. Jews and Palestinians can exist anywhere, and they can should be able to co-exist peacefully anywhere too, without the need to annihilate one another.

If they find it impossible to co-exist because of their mutual history, then they BOTH need areas where they can live in peace without harassment by the other. Those areas do not exist at the moment - and a safe area for each will not exist without a safe area for the other, which neither will achieve through an escalating war.

Agree, it is not an either or but this indiscriminate killing in Gaza has to stop and Israel should focus on getting the hostages home, not putting them in more danger. This Israeli govt has made it clear that it will not agree to a two state solution, so what they want is either to remove the Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank or they will continue to effectively have them living under occupation. The result will be that Israel will become a massive fortress. What an abysmal future for a country!

Elegran

The two are not either/or supports. Jews and Palestinians can exist anywhere, and they can should be able to co-exist peacefully anywhere too, without the need to annihilate one another.

If they find it impossible to co-exist because of their mutual history, then they BOTH need areas where they can live in peace without harassment by the other. Those areas do not exist at the moment - and a safe area for each will not exist without a safe area for the other, which neither will achieve through an escalating war.

Exactly Elegran

This is not helping anyone.

Vintagewhine
I know that you’re asking questions of another poster, and I expect she will answer when on the forum next, but meanwhile you are answering her question with a question really.
In any war there will be civilian deaths and injuries, it’s impossible to do otherwise, but they’re not being specifically targeted.That may not be any comfort to them of course.
Did the government of Gaza stay within the law when they literally butchered men women children and babies on Oct 7th? Cruel premeditated acts and very targeted.
Nobody has a right to exist more than anyone else but when the aim of the ruling body in a neighbouring country is to kill as many in Israel as they can and to wipe out Jews in general then the other country will do all it can to protect it’s citizens from further atrocities.
By doing what it did, hamas have unleashed a nightmare for the people of Gaza (and many of them have hated the Jews for years and years) now they can add hatred of hamas to that.
In the West Bank, Palestinians there hate Jews too, some have good reason to and some don’t but hate them anyway.If many of them think what hamas did was correct, as the poll says, and now look to hamas as heroes, what does that say about Palestinians?That they admire tying up children and burning them? Admire raping and cutting bits off women? Admire killing babies in their cots?
Yes, the middle east situation is a complicated one but Israel is beset by enemies, many like hamas and hezbollha cruel medieval savages who have lots of admirers in those countries and sadly around the world.Israel will do what it has to do.

From what I’ve read over the last few weeks, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are interested in a two state solution. It seems to be a dead duck for both groups. So it’s both unfair and untrue to suggest that only the Israelis don’t want a two state solution. In fact as I understand it, it was the almost signing of a significant peace deal by the Israelis with other Arab states that prompted the actions of Hamas on 7/10. The responsibility for the present circumstances does not lie solely with the Israelis. Context is everything.

You have summed up the situation correctly Oreo.
Israel is surrounded by enemy and always has been.

cruel medieval savages

An apt description.

maddyone

You have summed up the situation correctly Oreo.
Israel is surrounded by enemy and always has been.

So what's the solution?

Good post 10.00.23 Oreo

Oreo Now is not the time to score points, but find an end to the killing of innocent people and begin to discuss a long-term solution.

Israel doesn't have to do what it's doing now. It's creating more problems for future generations.

Well growstuff you have a habit of answering a post by asking a question.

If I knew the answer to your question I probably wouldn’t be a grandparent sipping a cup of coffee in my house on a Saturday morning.

Do you have a failsafe solution? I really hope you do because I’m sure the Israelis and Palestinians would be very grateful for your input.

growstuff if there was an easy solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict I am sure by now it would have been initiated.

Maddyone's sentence could also be written as "The responsibility for the present circumstances does not lie solely with the Palestnians . Context is everything."

While the responsibility is being firmly placed on only one (or only on the other) the deadlock will continue, more and more lives will be lost, more and more buildings will be detroyed, and more and more hatred built up for the future in the survivors. That is the nature of all-out war - it continues into future generations. Nobody wins.

No Elegran, my sentence could not be written as you suggest. 7/10 is solely the responsibility of Hamas, sadly it appears supported by many Palestinians. The evidence for this is the many photographs we have seen of Palestinians cheering and jeering at Jewish hostages, Palestinians celebrating in the streets after the events of 7/10, and the pictures of Palestinians spitting on the body of the murdered twenty year old Israeli girl as her body was paraded through the streets of Gaza on 7/10. So no, the responsibility for the current events can be laid squarely on the representatives of Palestine, that is Hamas.

It is horrific that Palestinian women and children are suffering and dying because of the actions on 7/10. This would not be happening if Hamas had not attacked Israel that day. When it will all end is beyond our knowledge. It’s indescribably awful.

Does anyone have any solutions AT ALL? There are no easy answers. only difficult ones, and the difficulties would hit ALL participants, if they were fair to them all.

If there were still any places on this globe where the land is fertile, routes are available for international trade and communications, and there are no original occupants to evict or slaughter before the land is empty for colonisation, then it might be "easier".

It would "just" need enough transport to take every single Palestinian there with all their possessions, enough supplies to keep everyone fed and sheltered until their new farms were cropping, and enough goodwill around the globe to permit them to establish themselves. Then Israel could achieve their dream without bloodshed.

However, the list of empty lands of milk and honey to colonise has reached an end. Co-existing with neighbours is an essential skill in this crowded world, wherever you move to.

Maddy There are also photographs of the result of Israeli actions over many years previous to 7 Oct.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff if there was an easy solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict I am sure by now it would have been initiated.

Of course there isn't an easy solution, but the current "solution" is making matters worse.

Perhaps all those photgraphs from both participants in this conflict should be published in one place in chronological order, to illustrate the degree of tit-for-tat that has gone on.

Co-existing with neighbours is an essential skill

Yes, of course it is, but the memo hasn’t yet reached Hamas!

In truth, it hasn't just been "tit-for-tat", it has been "tittit-for-tat" then "tattat-for-tittit" then "tittittit-for tattat" then "tattattattattat-for-tittittit" until it reached the current explosion.

Just as this Israeli govt doesn't speak for all Israelis, Hamas does not speak for all Palestinians. The difference is that Israel has a strong army backed by the US to protect it's citizens but the Palestinians in Gaza have no one to protect them but the rule of International law. Nearly 19,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed since 7/10. The collective punishment of a population is against International law. How anyone can think this is justifiable is beyond me. If someone broke into my home and murdered my husband and child in the most heinous way, it would not give me the right to seek out his friends and relatives to starve and butcher. The actions of Hamas, whilst absolutely appalling and which I totally condemn, cannot be used to justify what is happening in Gaza to innocent women and children. This Israeli govt has something in common with Hamas, neither want a two state solution but do they accurately reflect the wishes of the people they represent? We have to hope that they don't or the slaughter will just go on and on for ever.

I agree with you foxie. Neither group apparently want a two state solution. Punishing the women and children of Gaza is horrific in the same way as the attack on the Israelis was horrific.
I was merely trying to make the point that this latest situation has been brought about by Hamas. Had they not decided to go in a murderous killing spree on 7/10, this current situation would not be as it is and thousands of lives would have been saved. But none of us pretend that Hamas care about the Gazans, we know they do not.

The hostages held up a white flag and were shot anyway. Basically, in Gaza if you look like you might be a terrorist, you will be shot. No ability to surrender, no discussion, just a bullet. Mistakes happen apparently, but probably only admitted when it's one of your own. The IDF have had 105 IDF killed, 20% of them due to friendly fire.

Vintagewhine
I have made my position clear in previous posts. However perhaps you might answer a question. Do you believe Israel has the right to kill innocent women and children in order to exist? Do you believe their right to exist is more important than the right of Palestinians to exist? I believe Israel has the right to defend itself as long as it stays within the law what do you believe?

You didn’t answer my question and rather arrogant, not to say rude, of you to expect me to trawl back through the thread to ascertain your position on this.

My answer to your questions are No I don’t believe Israel or any other country/organisation has the right to kill innocent women and children OR men for that matter in order to exist. I don’t believe that Israel’s right to exist is more important than the Palestinians’ right to exist either. Everyone is entitled to life.

As it stands I believe the Israeli government has gone too far with its response. I don’t believe Hamas can be wiped out, and if they were to be, another group would take its place.

Now, tell me what you believe. Are Jews entitled to a homeland and place of safety without being bombarded by rockets fired from Gaza? Shouldn’t Jews be allowed to live in peace without having to have safe rooms in their homes? Where do you suggest Jews go? Are they to be forever the “wandering Jews”?

It’s all very well armchair pundits and grans on here pontificating about two state solutions but if fundamental Muslims have an avowed intent to wipe Jews off the face of the earth there will never be a two state solution. I have seen interviews where Palestinian people, usually men have categorically stated they won’t accept 99% of the land; only 100% is acceptable.

Strikes me that when dealing with radical Islam rationality is futile.

tickingbird

Vintagewhine
I have made my position clear in previous posts. However perhaps you might answer a question. Do you believe Israel has the right to kill innocent women and children in order to exist? Do you believe their right to exist is more important than the right of Palestinians to exist? I believe Israel has the right to defend itself as long as it stays within the law what do you believe?

You didn’t answer my question and rather arrogant, not to say rude, of you to expect me to trawl back through the thread to ascertain your position on this.

My answer to your questions are No I don’t believe Israel or any other country/organisation has the right to kill innocent women and children OR men for that matter in order to exist. I don’t believe that Israel’s right to exist is more important than the Palestinians’ right to exist either. Everyone is entitled to life.

As it stands I believe the Israeli government has gone too far with its response. I don’t believe Hamas can be wiped out, and if they were to be, another group would take its place.

Now, tell me what you believe. Are Jews entitled to a homeland and place of safety without being bombarded by rockets fired from Gaza? Shouldn’t Jews be allowed to live in peace without having to have safe rooms in their homes? Where do you suggest Jews go? Are they to be forever the “wandering Jews”?

It’s all very well armchair pundits and grans on here pontificating about two state solutions but if fundamental Muslims have an avowed intent to wipe Jews off the face of the earth there will never be a two state solution. I have seen interviews where Palestinian people, usually men have categorically stated they won’t accept 99% of the land; only 100% is acceptable.

Strikes me that when dealing with radical Islam rationality is futile.

Fair enough I certainly didn't mean to be rude or arrogant, so I apologise if it came over like that. My position has been consistent but I thought my last sentence was pretty clear, Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself. Tbh I think we seem to agree, however, I also would add that trying to deal with some of the members of the current Israeli govt is pretty futile too. Smotrich, Ben - Gvir and Eliyahu are very extreme in their views and have made some vile comments regarding the Palestinian people but Yetanyahu keeps these people around him so he can stay in power.