So pleased to see hostages being released.

There most definitely is a rise in anti Semitism here in Australia and it is almost like those people were just looking for an excuse to go on their marches and chant against Israel. It makes me sick to the stomach. They even tried to interrupt the annual Carol service held here in one of the city parks.

I don’t know what to call it when pictures of the victims of 7/10 are ripped down apart from antisemitism. That’s all it can be. Even the police were filmed pulling some of those pictures down, but mostly it was people on the pro Palestine marches.

nanna8

There most definitely is a rise in anti Semitism here in Australia and it is almost like those people were just looking for an excuse to go on their marches and chant against Israel. It makes me sick to the stomach. They even tried to interrupt the annual Carol service held here in one of the city parks.

Oh there’s plenty of it here in the UK too, some are just loving being on marches and shouting about it.

I wonder when did it become OK to accuse those concerned about the deaths of nearly 30,000 people of using this as "an excuse" to go on a march?

Thinking about the position of someone living in Israel. Is it OK for someone to deny the experiences of other people if they are not of the same demographic? I'm a white woman living in the NE of England, but I wouldn't dream of denying the experiences of police racism black teenagers in London have spoken about. After all if a problem is just ignored and denied it can only get worse.
Admitting Palestinians have not been treated equally recognising the problem and then dealing with it is the only way forward. I don't think anyone can say Israel is doing just that.

There is a lot of misinformation about genocide on this thread. It is not just the killing of thousands that is involved here. There are 10 recognised features many of which are applicable here.
The stages are:

Classification – The differences between people are not respected. There’s a division of ‘us’ and ‘them’ which can be carried out using stereotypes, or excluding people who are perceived to be different.
Symbolisation – This is a visual manifestation of hatred. Jews in Nazi Europe were forced to wear yellow stars to show that they were ‘different’.
Discrimination – The dominant group denies civil rights or even citizenship to identified groups. The 1935 Nuremberg Laws stripped Jews of their German citizenship, made it illegal for them to do many jobs or to marry German non-Jews.
Dehumanisation – Those perceived as ‘different’ are treated with no form of human rights or personal dignity. During the Genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda, Tutsis were referred to as ‘cockroaches’; the Nazis referred to Jews as ‘vermin’.
Organisation – Genocides are always planned. Regimes of hatred often train those who go on to carry out the destruction of a people.
Polarisation – Propaganda begins to be spread by hate groups. The Nazis used the newspaper Der Stürmer to spread and incite messages of hate about Jewish people.
Preparation – Perpetrators plan the genocide. They often use euphemisms such as the Nazis’ phrase ‘The Final Solution’ to cloak their intentions. They create fear of the victim group, building up armies and weapons.
Persecution – Victims are identified because of their ethnicity or religion and death lists are drawn up. People are sometimes segregated into ghettos, deported or starved and property is often expropriated. Genocidal massacres begin.
Extermination – The hate group murders their identified victims in a deliberate and systematic campaign of violence. Millions of lives have been destroyed or changed beyond recognition through genocide.
Denial – The perpetrators or later generations deny the existence of any crime.

Please identify which of these stages apply to Israel towards the Palestinians living in Gaza, a separate entity to Israel.

Philippa60

Please identify which of these stages apply to Israel towards the Palestinians living in Gaza, a separate entity to Israel.

Classification You can choose. Palestinians in Gaza are routinely described or designated as Hammas.
Israel refuses to recognise that many Palestinians. living in Gaza are refugees under International law www.migrationpolicy.org/article/palestinian-refugees-dispossession
Discrimination -as above in that these are Palestinian people who have been removed from their homeland. Are denied citizenship and discriminated against. Their freedoms are restricted by. Israel. This applies in any territory where Palestinians live
Dehumanistaion
Israeli defence minister refers to Palestinians in Gaza as "Gallant said Israel was battling "beastly people.""
Organisation There is substantial evidence that the Israeli government has been planning this attack on Gaza for some time. They have certainly had sufficient weapons and armory to maintain a sustained bombing campaign. That necessitates forward planning
Polarisation The idea that all the people of Gaza are somehow involved with Hammas and want to destroy Israel is widely promoted.
Preparation
As above with the inaccurate and impossible reasoning that this campaign will destroy Hammas in spite of evidence that this is not only unlikely but impossible.
Persecution
The whole of Gaza is essentially a ghetto where Palestinian people displaced by Israel have been held for generations over 60% of the population are refugees. Amnesty International recognised that in territories controlled by Israel Palestinians are routimely discriminated against.
This genocide began years ago.
Extermination
30,676 Palestinians have been killed in Israel Defense Forces (IDF) attacks since October 7, taking into account both those whose bodies have been identified and those who have been missing for more than two weeks, most buried under the rubble of demolished buildings.

This staggering death toll includes 12,040 children, 6,103 women, 241 health workers and 105 journalists. A further 58,960 people have been wounded in the onslaught.
What else is this but Genocide?

None of this includes the Palestinians killed on the WestBank
^483 Palestinians have been killed and more than 12,769 injured by Israeli forces and settlers in the occupied West Bank.^12 Dec 2023
Missed the last one
Denial I think this is fairly obvious, don't you?

The stages of genocide do not necessarily occur in any definite order, nor do all the factors have to be present to identify Genocide
www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/

Glorianny, sorry, your information is so skewed and basically wrong but you'll have to excuse me, I am simply too exhausted dealing with my young grandchildren and elderly's mother's stress from this war, where rockets are indiscriminately fired into our towns... to deal with this.

Just one question: Hamas know the precise, exact number killed? Seriously?
"12,040 children, 6,103 women, 241 health workers and 105 journalists. A further 58,960 people have been wounded in the onslaught"
One question: How many Hamas terrorists killed? Interesting that they never admit these.
Israel STILL doesn't know their final casualty number, with the best forensic scientists, and it's been 3 months.

This is not genocide. There is no intent to kill innocent civilians. Most civilians killed were deliberately put in harms way by Hamas.

But OK, you won't be budged from your narrative which is fine. Same with me, the only difference being that I base mine on FACTS.
Good night

Philippa60

Glorianny, sorry, your information is so skewed and basically wrong but you'll have to excuse me, I am simply too exhausted dealing with my young grandchildren and elderly's mother's stress from this war, where rockets are indiscriminately fired into our towns... to deal with this.

Just one question: Hamas know the precise, exact number killed? Seriously?
"12,040 children, 6,103 women, 241 health workers and 105 journalists. A further 58,960 people have been wounded in the onslaught"
One question: How many Hamas terrorists killed? Interesting that they never admit these.
Israel STILL doesn't know their final casualty number, with the best forensic scientists, and it's been 3 months.

This is not genocide. There is no intent to kill innocent civilians. Most civilians killed were deliberately put in harms way by Hamas.

But OK, you won't be budged from your narrative which is fine. Same with me, the only difference being that I base mine on FACTS.
Good night

So you asked me for details and I provided them
.
I'm sorry your family are living in such conditions. Think how much worse it would be if you were living in Gaza where you, your elderly mother and your grandchildren would have had to leave your homes and make your way south. You would be living in the open trying to find safety from the bombing, struggling to find food and water, and be unable to post on GN because you would not have internet access.

I'll ask again if you question the number of deaths in Gaza how many children is an acceptable number for Israel to kill in their vain attempt to destroy Hamas?

Where do civilians take shelter in a country which was overpopulated when it was all accessible? Never mind when the population has been forced into a tiny area by Israel. How do you protect your children from bombs without the highly sophisticated protection the US has given Israel?

Finally why do you accept all the propaganda the Israeli government feeds you? I suspect they know exactly how many IDF have been killed, revealing those figures though might turn the people of Israel against the war, just like the death count in Vietnam war did the US population.
I posted sources for my opinions. You are free to accept or reject them.

Glorianny I understand where you are coming from.
Phillipa60 I understand where you are coming from.
The trouble is how do we move forward? We need the ability to put ourselves in the other persons shoes. Don’t talk about the history of the area we are told, but it is important and relevant.
I truly believe it would be wonderful if everyone could live with each other, but there are extremes at work here, that is the problem.

susytish

Glorianny I understand where you are coming from.
Phillipa60 I understand where you are coming from.
The trouble is how do we move forward? We need the ability to put ourselves in the other persons shoes. Don’t talk about the history of the area we are told, but it is important and relevant.
I truly believe it would be wonderful if everyone could live with each other, but there are extremes at work here, that is the problem.

Of course there are but the concept that extremism can be overcome by physical force has been shown to be completely inaccurate in many places. What does work in combating extremism is providing opportunities, developing economies and building societies. Extremism flourishes in places where discrimination and inequality is enforced. If you have nothing to lose you are more likely to lay down your life for a cause.
The present situation in Gaza will be serving as a recruitment promotion for Hamas.

To Glorianny who wrote

"Finally why do you accept all the propaganda the Israeli government feeds you? I suspect they know exactly how many IDF have been killed, revealing those figures though might turn the people of Israel against the war..."

This statement / question proves what I thought - you really don't know much about Israel.
How do I know?
Because Israel (unlike Hamas or the Palestinians) has FREE PRESS!! Israel is a village, with perhaps 2 degrees of separation, and there is NO WAY to hide the deaths of a single IDF soldier.
They are our friends' sons, our children's friends, our colleagues' nephews. We know them, we mourn them.
It's unbelievably insulting that you would question that we don't know how many IDF soldiers have died!

And to your point about the US providing Israel with protective systems. No. The Iron Dome was developed by ISRAEL. And Germany, just for example, have recently purchased the system.

Hamas invested in rockets to attack Israel. Israel developed protective systems against their rockets. Just one basic difference.

I feel VERY sad for ANY innocent Gazan caught up in this mess, although surveys suggest that around 75-80% of them support Hamas and the massacre.
They totally HAD the opportunity for economic development. All the aid money poured into Gaza was precisely for that. But Hamas took the money and invested in weapons to attack Israel. Read their charter. That is their aim, not providing a good life for the people.

Finally - there is no number!! No innocent children should be hurt, on either side, ever! And no innocent elderly people, women and children should still be held hostage in Gaza.

On 31 December, the IDF announced that 172 had been killed. Another 937 soldiers had been wounded in the ground operation — 211 seriously wounded, 347 moderately, and 379 lightly.

From 2011 to 2021, the United States contributed a total of US$1.6 billion to the Iron Dome defense system, with another US$1 billion approved by the US Congress in 2022.

Iron Dome was originally developed without US assistance, but in 2011 Israel’s key ally began backing the program financially. Once the US invested in Iron Dome, Congress pressed for technology sharing and co-production, which is how Raytheon entered the picture. It makes components for the interceptors. Today some of the anti-rocket missile battery is made in the US. American support for the system is part of a larger package of US military aid to Israel, which according to an agreement between the two countries will total $38 billion in the years 2019 to 2028.

Israel has a free press, to some extent, but has been downgraded due to recent actions from the government. This is the latest report from Freedom House:

The Israeli media sector is vibrant and free to criticize government policy. While the scope of permissible reporting is generally broad, print articles on security matters are subject to a military censor. According to official statistics released in June 2022, the military partially redacted a total of 1,313 news items and fully barred publication of 129 others in 2021, out of 7,413 stories submitted for review; the figures represented an 11-year low. The Government Press Office has occasionally withheld press cards from journalists to restrict them from entering Israel, citing security considerations.

Despite the existence of robust legal protections for journalists, Netanyahu’s tenure as prime minister negatively affected the public’s trust in the media, which Netanyahu and his allies portrayed as traitors seeking to unseat him. As a result, journalists describe being discouraged from reporting on topics that were perceived to be sympathetic to Palestinians, or frame reporting in a way that would not seem “leftist.” Netanyahu’s efforts to undermine the independence of Israel’s national broadcaster Kan and financially weaken commercial television channels have had a chilling effect on the desire of these media outlets to investigate misconduct or corruption allegations implicating influential politicians.

Most Israeli media outlets are not financially independent, and are affected by the commercial interest of their owners, sometimes resulting in coverage biased toward the owners’ business and political interests. In one recent example, the editor in chief of Yedioth Ahronoth and Ynet, businessman Nochi Dankner, and the owner of the Walla! News websites, Shaul Alowitz, attempted to secure regulatory favors from then prime minister Netanyahu in exchange for favorable coverage. Legal cases against the three, who were indicted on several corruption charges, were ongoing at the end of 2022.

Philippa60

To Glorianny who wrote

"Finally why do you accept all the propaganda the Israeli government feeds you? I suspect they know exactly how many IDF have been killed, revealing those figures though might turn the people of Israel against the war..."

This statement / question proves what I thought - you really don't know much about Israel.
How do I know?
Because Israel (unlike Hamas or the Palestinians) has FREE PRESS!! Israel is a village, with perhaps 2 degrees of separation, and there is NO WAY to hide the deaths of a single IDF soldier.
They are our friends' sons, our children's friends, our colleagues' nephews. We know them, we mourn them.
It's unbelievably insulting that you would question that we don't know how many IDF soldiers have died!

And to your point about the US providing Israel with protective systems. No. The Iron Dome was developed by ISRAEL. And Germany, just for example, have recently purchased the system.

Hamas invested in rockets to attack Israel. Israel developed protective systems against their rockets. Just one basic difference.

I feel VERY sad for ANY innocent Gazan caught up in this mess, although surveys suggest that around 75-80% of them support Hamas and the massacre.
They totally HAD the opportunity for economic development. All the aid money poured into Gaza was precisely for that. But Hamas took the money and invested in weapons to attack Israel. Read their charter. That is their aim, not providing a good life for the people.

Finally - there is no number!! No innocent children should be hurt, on either side, ever! And no innocent elderly people, women and children should still be held hostage in Gaza.

I wonder do you know how many IDF soldiers have been killed by "friendly fire" is that reported?

The Iron Dome was designed by Israel but they had not the financial resources to fund its development.
Until the 2021 war in Gaza, the US had contributed a total of US$1.6 billion to the Iron Dome defense system.[11] After the end of the 2021 conflict, Israel asked the US for another US$1 billion for replenishing the Iron Dome batteries, which was approved by the US Congress in 2022

Had the US not supported that defense system Israel would be in a very different position now.

Does the fact that someone supports an organisation you disapprove of give you the right to kill them? Did the children killed support Hamas?

What happened to the aid money is irrelevant. Gaza has never been able to fund its own development and Israel has controlled that development through restricting access to power and water, controlling border crossings and preventing sea access.

I wonder why do you ignore the suffering of the people of Gaza? Why can't you admit there is something radically wrong?

Glorianny
Yes, the number of "friendly fire" killed is reported every day.
Why wouldn't it be?
Also when the IDF makes mistakes, which it does, these are reported.
You seem to be very upset about the casualties only on one side. Sorry, but I am still stuck on October 7th when our families were slaughtered in their beds, murdered at a music festival, raped, beheaded, taken hostages....
I deplore violence, as I have written repeatedly, but you seem to only regret the Palestinian casualties and not the Israelis.

What do you mean by there is "something radically wrong"?
Hamas attacking innocent people - for sure.
Israel retaliating and trying to eliminate Hamas - no.
Innocent people getting harmed - absolutely. But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, that is mostly on Hamas.

Anyway I think we've gone over this enough.

Philippa
Don’t feed her, she thrives on it 😖

MerylStreep

Philippa
Don’t feed her, she thrives on it 😖

Yes, I realize, I am honestly too wrapped up in the daily struggle here. Happy to explain things if it's helpful, to those open and interested, but not otherwise.
Thanks for your note, MerylStreep (my very favourite actress!)
Philippa

Philippa Thank you for continuing to post.
I hope you are able to grab some rest. Take care.

Philippa I regret all hostilities and all casualties but when someone repeatedly accuses dead women and children of being somehow the enemy, does not hold responsible their government which is killing and injuring innocent people, who have been driven from their homes and are starving and dying, then I'm afraid I will speak up for those people.

As I have said there are no posters on these threads from Gaza for obvious reasons. Someone has to speak for them.

I have asked a few times are the dead children Hamas?
How many children is it acceptable to kill to destroy Hamas?

Glory you seem to claim to be the only poster competent or we,ing to speak for the Palestinians killed. That’s untrue, the majority of posters refer to the loss of life since 7 October.

You seem only to see this situation from a narrow lens. It needs more

Iam64

Glory you seem to claim to be the only poster competent or we,ing to speak for the Palestinians killed. That’s untrue, the majority of posters refer to the loss of life since 7 October.

You seem only to see this situation from a narrow lens. It needs more

I haven't said that at all. I have specifically been asked about the killing and deaths and answered. It was a reply. It was not a general statement.
Would you like to elaborate on the "narrow lens"?
I see this as a continuing situation which will not be resolved by the current attacks on Gaza.
I would have much more sympathy with Israel had it tried at any time to comply with at least some of the UN resolutions which have been passed on the subject.

What should Israel have done after the 7/10 attacks?