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So pleased to see hostages being released.

(1001 Posts)
foxie48 Fri 24-Nov-23 18:46:20

GN hasn't had much to say in the last few days, perhaps like me you have been holding your breath and hoping to see hostages being released and aid flowing into Gaza. I am not religious so I can't pray but I am hoping that this release of hostages continues and this breathing space gives an opportunity for a long term peace plan to evolve.

tickingbird Mon 01-Jan-24 09:57:13

Foxie48

Actually there is much dispute regarding these eye witness accounts. I can supply several from people that were there that lay the blame squarely at Arafat’s door.

Witnesses have given contradictory accounts of the proceedings, none are definitive but it’s widely accepted that Arafat was under pressure from Arab leaders not to give ground. You don’t understand the cultural mores that govern such people and their perception of honour, masculinity etc.

Fleurpepper Mon 01-Jan-24 11:23:28

Iam64

Fleurpepper - my Jewish friends are anti the actions of the Israeli government. The divisions in the community on this reflect the divisions in society generally. They are certainly not being subjected “to the worst kind of Anti Semitism - as in civil war - Jew against Jew”
Inflammatory, exaggerated, sanctimonious comments about this terrible war don’t add anything constructive to any path towards peace.

Are your friends actively and loudly denouncing Netanyahu? In real life, in their communities in Israel, on social media with other Israelis. In the UK or in Israel?

There is NO exageration at all in what I said- this is what is directly reported to me by Jewish friends who strongly and openly are saying 'NO, NOT in our name', and denouncing openly the genocide taking place. As said, I have seen so many messages and videos of those in Israel who are calling for the total extermination of all Palestinians and taking of the land, both in Gaza and the West Bank.

Denial adds nothing any path towards peace. So many Jews in Israel do not want peace, at all. Not now, and not for a very long time.

Philippa60 Mon 01-Jan-24 11:23:47

Good Morning and Happy New Year to all on GN.
I was interested to see this thread and thought I'd jump in, as a British / Israeli dual citizen, currently living in Israel (just north of Tel-Aviv).
I note there are mixed views here, and I didn't read all 32 pages of this thread (yet), but as someone who I hope can act as a credible and local source, let me add a few points which might help make sense of all of this:
1. On October 6th there was a ceasefire in place which Hamas violently broke on October 7th. The atrocities of that massacre are still becoming clear. What is known is that around 900 innocent civilians in addition to around 400 soldiers and police were killed by the terrorists. Sexual crimes and unbelievable acts against humanity were carried out, all filmed by Hamas themselves.
2. How they managed to get into Israel and do this is a HUGE issue which will be investigated after the war. It is Israel's 9/11 multiplied by about 15 to account for the proportionate sizes.
3. Hamas ruled Gaza from 2006. No Israeli occupation!
4. Hamas' stated goal is the elimination of Israel. How do you negotiate when your partner wants you wiped off the map?
5. Israel has repeatedly AGREED to a 2-state solution. The Palestinians have repeatedly refused.
6. After 7/10 Israel HAS TO remove Hamas from its border, the organization has promised to carry out another 7/10 as soon as it can. By the way Hamas threatens the West as well, not just Israel.
7. 129 hostages including women, children and men in their EIGHTIES (!) are still held in Gaza. The videos of them being released were designed by Hamas to falsely portray their "good" treatment. Since their release we are hearing the horrific stories.
8. Israel's army does EVERYTHING it can to avoid innocent civilian deaths and operates according to international law. If Israel didn't care about Gazan civilians, the war would have been over in days, without the loss of a further 160 IDF soldiers,
9. Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israeli towns, including last night at midnight - Happy New Year!
10. Many Israelis, myself included, believed peace was possible up until 7/10. Hard to believe it any more, sadly.
11. Many Israelis, myself included, think Netanyahu needs to go, he's been PM too long and we need a more centralist government, especially without the right-wing extreme factions. I am hopeful this will happen after the war.
12. Lastly, NO Israeli soldier rapes Palestinians. The person who posted that should back that up if they can, or please don't make libelous statements.
All I've written can be backed up with facts.
If you are interested, I'd refer you to Eylon Levy (British, current Israel government spokesperson) - check out his brilliant posts on Twitter/X or YouTube.
Really hoping for a much better 2024
P60
-

Fleurpepper Mon 01-Jan-24 12:35:09

A must-read article by Amira Hass from Haaretz on why most Israelis are immune to the suffering of Palestinians. Thanks Tamir Sorek for bringing it to my attention.
What allows most Jews in Israel not to be shocked by the fact that in about two months we have killed about 7,000 children (temporary data) with the enhanced bombs that the United States provided us? What allows the majority of Jews not to suffocate in the horror of a compressing 1.8 or 1.9 million people in an area of 120 km, which is also constantly exploded, and not to cry out for the reports of hunger and thirst of 2.2 million Palestinian citizens and the diseases that spread due to the density and lack of water and hospitals? What enables the erasure and mass slaughter of children, with our active and passive participation? Here are some answers:
• Decades of education on the knees of absolute belief in the exclusive ability of a military power to ensure the existence and prosperity of the country, while denying rights from the Palestinian people.
• Deleting all "context" — which incitement has made it a synonym for supporting Hamas and justifying its horrors.
• The monopoly we took, the Jews, on the concept of suffering caused by the cruelty of the other.
• The choice not to know and not to watch the unbearable images that show Palestinian children trembling and gray-faced from dust, torn from the Russian walls. And you don't know who is more lucky: them or those who died.
• Every mass slaughter or tiffin-tiffin that we commit in Palestinians is years, every looting, humiliation, abuse, goes through thousands of media, psychological and academic filters. The crane product is the self conviction that their situation is better than that of Somalis or Syrians, so let's not complain.
• Remembering every massacre Palestinians have committed on us. You have forgotten every massacre we have committed.
• The decades-old practice of living in peace and well — who is more and who is less — five minutes away from our backyard, where israel (that is us) destroys for Palestinians and builds for Jews, flows water to Jews and exploits Palestinians. And all the rest is written in the reports "The Focus for the Protection of the Individual", "Betzelem" and "Adalea".
• Decades-old ignorance of warnings of "moderate" Palestinians, who robbed the lands and freedom and violence of the settlers with the help of the state — and inspired by its violence — reduce the horizons of their children and generate desperation and belief only in the power of weapons and revenge.
• The essential perception of the world: Palestinians are terrorists because they are like that. Born with the genes of hating us. A direct sequel to Hamelnitsky and Titus.
• The self-conviction that we are a democracy even though for more than 56 years we have controlled millions of people without civil rights, in their land and economy.
• The deep racial disrespect of Palestinians, that we developed in order to cognitively and psychologically justify their trampling under our feet.
• Denial of Palestinian history and the roots of Palestinian existence between the river and the sea.
• Elimination of Gaza is possible because since 1994 we have deliberately missed the opportunity — offered to us by the Palestinians — to get rid of our characteristics as an occupying and settling entity and to give them a state of 22% of the territory west of Jordan. I wrote in July 2021: "In the light of the talk about apartheid is fading and eclipsing the dynamic, active and dangerous dimension that is Jewish-ass colonialism." This is an ideology in which the Palestinians are 'giving up', it is the actions that have shaped this ideology, which are inspired and nourished by it. In short: it is possible and desirable that only the Palestinians are allowed. Their existence here is conditional, by grace and not merit, depends on our will and our kindness, it's a question of time. The 'luxury' ideology is a poison that spreads especially when the colonial process is in full swing. Settler colonialism is in a constant movement of land acquisition, eradicating historical boundaries, redesigning, and expulsion of the original inhabitants".
I then referred to the Palestinian "luxuries" in the West Bank and warned against the intentions of Gresham. I thought that the treatment of the people of Gaza as "giving up" resulted in the separation from their boredom and their families beyond the Erez checkpoint. But here, now the "luxury" is manifested in their deportation ("willingly", in the shadow of the bombs) and in the physical erase of the Gazats and plans for the renewal of the Jewish settlement in the Strip.

silverlining48 Mon 01-Jan-24 13:58:42

Amira Hass says it all.

Glorianny Mon 01-Jan-24 14:10:06

So what you are saying is that Arab people have no right to decide their future or influence their leaders because you perceive their culture as being in some way toxic? Isn’t that the worst sort of colonialism? And doesn’t it ignore the very masculine nature of orthodox and traditional Judaism?

foxie48 Mon 01-Jan-24 14:49:46

tickingbird

Foxie48

Actually there is much dispute regarding these eye witness accounts. I can supply several from people that were there that lay the blame squarely at Arafat’s door.

Witnesses have given contradictory accounts of the proceedings, none are definitive but it’s widely accepted that Arafat was under pressure from Arab leaders not to give ground. You don’t understand the cultural mores that govern such people and their perception of honour, masculinity etc.

I don't think that it is "it’s widely accepted that Arafat was under pressure from Arab leaders not to give ground" It was Israel that reneged on Rabin's promise to withdraw from the Golan Heights after Rabin's assassination. Israel was negotiating with Jordon, Syria and Lebanon directly, not via Arafat and the PA.
"You don’t understand the cultural mores that govern such people and their perception of honour, masculinity etc."
Who and what do you mean by "such people"?

Anniebach Mon 01-Jan-24 16:26:51

Happy New Year Phillippa60 , thank you

growstuff Mon 01-Jan-24 17:10:50

tickingbird

Foxie48

Actually there is much dispute regarding these eye witness accounts. I can supply several from people that were there that lay the blame squarely at Arafat’s door.

Witnesses have given contradictory accounts of the proceedings, none are definitive but it’s widely accepted that Arafat was under pressure from Arab leaders not to give ground. You don’t understand the cultural mores that govern such people and their perception of honour, masculinity etc.

Enlighten us! What are the cultural mores governing such people?

Iam64 Mon 01-Jan-24 18:07:20

and doesn’t it ignore the masculine nature of orthodox and traditional Judaism. Oh the irony

Oreo Mon 01-Jan-24 20:18:13

Philippa60

Good Morning and Happy New Year to all on GN.
I was interested to see this thread and thought I'd jump in, as a British / Israeli dual citizen, currently living in Israel (just north of Tel-Aviv).
I note there are mixed views here, and I didn't read all 32 pages of this thread (yet), but as someone who I hope can act as a credible and local source, let me add a few points which might help make sense of all of this:
1. On October 6th there was a ceasefire in place which Hamas violently broke on October 7th. The atrocities of that massacre are still becoming clear. What is known is that around 900 innocent civilians in addition to around 400 soldiers and police were killed by the terrorists. Sexual crimes and unbelievable acts against humanity were carried out, all filmed by Hamas themselves.
2. How they managed to get into Israel and do this is a HUGE issue which will be investigated after the war. It is Israel's 9/11 multiplied by about 15 to account for the proportionate sizes.
3. Hamas ruled Gaza from 2006. No Israeli occupation!
4. Hamas' stated goal is the elimination of Israel. How do you negotiate when your partner wants you wiped off the map?
5. Israel has repeatedly AGREED to a 2-state solution. The Palestinians have repeatedly refused.
6. After 7/10 Israel HAS TO remove Hamas from its border, the organization has promised to carry out another 7/10 as soon as it can. By the way Hamas threatens the West as well, not just Israel.
7. 129 hostages including women, children and men in their EIGHTIES (!) are still held in Gaza. The videos of them being released were designed by Hamas to falsely portray their "good" treatment. Since their release we are hearing the horrific stories.
8. Israel's army does EVERYTHING it can to avoid innocent civilian deaths and operates according to international law. If Israel didn't care about Gazan civilians, the war would have been over in days, without the loss of a further 160 IDF soldiers,
9. Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israeli towns, including last night at midnight - Happy New Year!
10. Many Israelis, myself included, believed peace was possible up until 7/10. Hard to believe it any more, sadly.
11. Many Israelis, myself included, think Netanyahu needs to go, he's been PM too long and we need a more centralist government, especially without the right-wing extreme factions. I am hopeful this will happen after the war.
12. Lastly, NO Israeli soldier rapes Palestinians. The person who posted that should back that up if they can, or please don't make libelous statements.
All I've written can be backed up with facts.
If you are interested, I'd refer you to Eylon Levy (British, current Israel government spokesperson) - check out his brilliant posts on Twitter/X or YouTube.
Really hoping for a much better 2024
P60
-

I agree, but much of these facts are being glossed over by a few people in favour of hamas style propaganda which they’ve swallowed.
If the Israeli army had wanted to they could have wiped out Gaza within the first week, it’s taking so long as they want to be as careful as possible.
I see a great deal of exaggeration going on by one or two posters and a whole load of opinions not based on facts.

Iam64 Mon 01-Jan-24 20:36:14

I see a great deal of exaggeration going on by one or two posters and a whole load of opinions not based on facts

I also believe we need to put aside partisan politics if it’s going to be possible to work for the good of the Palestinian and Israeli populations.

growstuff Mon 01-Jan-24 20:51:53

Iam64

*I see a great deal of exaggeration going on by one or two posters and a whole load of opinions not based on facts*

I also believe we need to put aside partisan politics if it’s going to be possible to work for the good of the Palestinian and Israeli populations.

I agree with you on this 100% Iam64.

growstuff Mon 01-Jan-24 20:53:15

Incidentally, I'm still waiting to be enlightened by tickingbird about Arabs' cultural mores.

Glorianny Mon 01-Jan-24 21:01:16

I posted about Israelis raping Palestinian women. On my phone not my laptop but will try to find the link . It is an accepted website
As for the concept that Israel didn’t control Gaza I think everyone knows who controlled the borders and restricted the movement of people and goods.
There are currently between 4000 and 8000 Palestinians held prisoner by Israel some of those are children and some have been tortured.
The concept that Israel has tried to limit its actions is not supported by any other organisation. South Africa is accusing them of genocide .

Oreo Mon 01-Jan-24 21:15:11

Who are the ‘we’ tho Iam64 ?
We here on GN can’t do a thing about it.The governing body in Gaza have decided to start a war by what they did on 7/10.
Israel is responding.I’m certainly partisan about it, hamas and Israel are not equals, hamas are unspeakable thugs.

growstuff Mon 01-Jan-24 21:17:32

Oreo

Who are the ‘we’ tho Iam64 ?
We here on GN can’t do a thing about it.The governing body in Gaza have decided to start a war by what they did on 7/10.
Israel is responding.I’m certainly partisan about it, hamas and Israel are not equals, hamas are unspeakable thugs.

So that justifies any action against the people and land Hamas governs, does it?

Oreo Mon 01-Jan-24 21:23:15

It justifies action to kill and take prisoner as many hamas members as they can.
If Israel wanted to take any action they could have bombed Gaza to bits in the first week. They didn’t do that.

growstuff Mon 01-Jan-24 21:32:58

Oreo

It justifies action to kill and take prisoner as many hamas members as they can.
If Israel wanted to take any action they could have bombed Gaza to bits in the first week. They didn’t do that.

And risked the condemnation of the whole world? I don't think so. They're destroying it now and they know it - and playing a game of justification.

Fleurpepper Mon 01-Jan-24 21:33:02

NO, it does not- because most of the ones killed and taken prisoners are NOT Hamas. You know this, of course.

Philippa60 Tue 02-Jan-24 06:43:44

Israel doesn't take innocent civilians prisoner! Please be sure of facts before posting. Why on earth would Israel do that? Unlike Israel's hostages who are being starved and deprived of basic human necessities like medication (some at age 85! Can you imagine??) the terrorists held in Israeli prisons get 3 meals a day, exercise, medical treatment... That costs a fortune. Israel has NO interest in holding civilians! Any "children" held are teenagers who carried out violent acts. Hamas on the other hand are still holding an 11 month old baby, a 4-year old and many elderly men. Hardly equivalent.

growstuff Tue 02-Jan-24 07:55:37

It's difficult to know whom to believe.

This is a report from Amnesty International about the treatment of Palestinians in Israeli jails:

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

growstuff Tue 02-Jan-24 08:00:08

And an article from Haaretz:

www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-02/ty-article/.premium/palestinian-arab-prisoners-report-surge-in-violence-by-israeli-guards-since-oct-7/0000018c-c6a2-ddba-abad-c6a3a6920000

Philippa60 Tue 02-Jan-24 08:31:41

growstuff
I am sure there might be the odd bad apple in the Israeli prison system. I can tell you that this is not the approach.
Any soldier or police guard who behaves in an illegal way is severely reprimanded and punished.
Israel is such an open society that these cases always get reported (a good thing!).
It is definitely NOT the official way of operating.
Unlike Hamas: if you disagree with them you get shot!

growstuff Tue 02-Jan-24 08:47:31

How can you be sure that what you are telling us is true?

I have never been in either an Israeli prison or a Hamas tunnel, so I can't vouch for the truth.

All I can do is read reports and keep an open mind.

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