So pleased to see hostages being released.

Elegran

The Uk wasn't always as toothless.
From my link - "In November 1947, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem under a UN administration. The Arab world rejected the plan, arguing that it was unfair and violated the UN Charter. Jewish militias launched attacks against Palestinian villages, forcing thousands to flee. The situation escalated into a full-blown war in 1948, with the end of the British Mandate and the departure of British forces, the declaration of independence of the State of Israel and the entry of neighbouring Arab armies. The newly established Israeli forces launched a major offensive. The result of the war was the permanent displacement of more than half of the Palestinian population."
What was the US position when this resolution was passed? What has happened in the US since then to change their stance? Is it an effect of 9/11 ?

The Jewish influence in the US pre-dates the establishment of Israel. It is well funded and highly organised. It has huge influence in electoral results. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#:~:text=The%20American%20Israel%20Public%20Affairs%20Committee%20(AIPAC)%20which%20directly%20lobbies,
In case anyone tries to equate this with anti-semitism, not all Jews support Zionism and some very orthodox Jews will have nothing to do with this matter.

The US has a lot of influence on both the questions I put above (how it can be stopped from escalating into global warfare and how there can be an equable settlement made that is fair to all. without that there will never be an end?)

The next question is, how can the US be persuaded to use that influence to stop the genocide that is happening and to broker a solution that is fair to both Israel and Palestine?

Wringing our hands and saying prayers to God to change people's hearts is a very human reaction, but using our intelligence to find ways to change their minds and attitudes is another way that humans can influence other humans.

9/11 seemed to influence , that is reduce, American support for Republican paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. Dare we hope and even pray that what is happening to Palestinians will reduce US support for the tactics of Netanyahu’s extreme government

Support for the oppressed in Ireland an Jews everywhere is no doubt linked to the large Irish and Jewish communities in America

Elegran

The US has a lot of influence on both the questions I put above (how it can be stopped from escalating into global warfare and how there can be an equable settlement made that is fair to all. without that there will never be an end?)

The next question is, how can the US be persuaded to use that influence to stop the genocide that is happening and to broker a solution that is fair to both Israel and Palestine?

There's evidence that younger voters in the US are much less inclined to give Israel unquestioning support so in the future it may be that the political will to fund Israel could diminish. Also some evidence that Jews living in the US are not as willing to give whole hearted to support to what is happening in Gaza. The interview posted by Fleurpepper talked about the extent to which the Israeli Jews are being shielded from the reality of what is happening in Gaza by it's own media, obviously this is not true of Jews living outside of Israel. The US is absolutely key in finding a way to peace and has always been key, however it's foreign policies have not always been that thoughtful, sadly, and I dread to think what will happen if Trump gets back into the White House.

Elegran

Wringing our hands and saying prayers to God to change people's hearts is a very human reaction, but using our intelligence to find ways to change their minds and attitudes is another way that humans can influence other humans.

Leaders, advisers can do that but ordinary people will have little influence so only do what they can in the ways they know best.
For many around the world that will be to pray to their own God, to lobby their political representatives.

Most people will, in fact, give it little thought apart from perhaps watching the news and saying "how dreadful" unless it affects them or those they love directly.

Elegran

Wringing our hands and saying prayers to God to change people's hearts is a very human reaction, but using our intelligence to find ways to change their minds and attitudes is another way that humans can influence other humans.

Yes, and the two are not mutually exclusive like some seem to imagine.
We can do both, similtaneously, by feeling sorrowful, and empathise, and also by taking charge and doing something.
There is such a thing as divine intelligence.

Elegran
Who started it and who is responsible for the latest eruption is less important at the moment than two aims - how it can be stopped from escalating into global warfare and how there can be an equable settlement made that is fair to all. without that there will never be an end

If one side - Hamas - have an avowed intention of at least wiping every Jew from the region, and at most, off the face of the earth, how on earth can a settlement be reached? Where is the starting point for reasoned discussion?

Bill Clinton came very close to brokering a peace deal but at the very last minute Arafat walked away.

What’s happening at present is horrific but, although it’s continuing, news reports are becoming less and less and there appears to be no end in sight.

Netanyahu, the IDF and a large part of Jews in Israel have been very loud and explicit, in saying they want all Palestinians to be obliterated, for the whole of Gaza and the West Bank to be flattened- so they can take over. Is that any start for a reasoned discussion?

What happened on 7th of October for just diabolical- but as just become an excuse for the wholesale destruction of Palestine and its people.

''As the negotiators were issuing a joint communique, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich delivered a speech in Paris saying the notion of a Palestinian people was artificial.

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation. There is no Palestinian history. There is no Palestinian language,” he said in France late Sunday. He spoke at a lectern draped with what appeared to be an image showing the map of Israel that included the occupied West Bank, Gaza and Jordan.

Jordan’s Foreign Ministry said that Smotrich’s appearance with the icon was a “reckless inflammatory act and a violation of international norms and the peace treaty” between the two countries.

Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh said Smotrich’s remarks were “conclusive evidence of the extremist, racist Zionist ideology that governs the parties of the current Israeli government.”

A far-right settler leader who opposes Palestinian statehood, Smotrich has a history of offensive statements against the Palestinians. Last month, he called for the Palestinian town of Hawara in the West Bank to be “erased” after radical Jewish settlers rampaged through the town ''

A very Senior Minister. And so many videos out there of the terrible treatment of Palestinian by the IDF, and the calls for all Palestinians to be exterminated like animals. I have chosen to to show those on here, because they are just too shocking.

Equally, tickingbird Since "Netanyahu, the IDF and a large part of Jews in Israel have been very loud and explicit, in saying they want all Palestinians to be obliterated, for the whole of Gaza and the West Bank to be flattened- so they can take over." as Fleurpepper posts, is THAT any start for a reasoned discussion?"^ As always, compromise is the step that the other party must take.

If both parties could realise that they are acting as mirror images of one another, and try a new approach that admits that their counterparts are human, too, and acting at least partly out of fear, who knows what coud be achieved?

Tickingbird that isn't correct. The Oslo accords were almost agreed but Ariel Sharon insisted on visiting the Temple Mount accompanied by 1,000 security guards. He was asked not to do this by his own government because it was very provocative. However, he went ahead, probably because he disagreed with giving up any territory as part of the agreement. This act led to the second intifada. Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir, an Israeli extremist who disagreed with the Oslo accords. Rabin was succeeded as PM by Netanyahu from the Likud Party which had historically opposed Palestinian statehood and withdrawal from the occupied territories.

It would seem that Netanyahu and his far right ministers envision the large scale ‘ transfer ‘ of Gaza’s civilian population as a solution to Israel’s post-war security concerns according to Haaretz News today. Without outlining his preferred method, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich suggests that the removal of 90% of Gaza’s residents would help achieve his goal. Which is that Israel alone must control the Gaza Strip and that “ in order to control the territory militarily over time, you must also have civilian presence there. “ With refugee camps, hospitals, schools and homes being continually bombarded and very little aid being allowed in, the people of Gaza must feel close to ‘ transferring ‘ themselves.

These are people who were moved out of their villages by the Israelis and took shelter in Gaza, which was part of Egypt until Israel captured it in the 6 days war. These are Palestinians refugees, the descendants of Palestinians, who used to live in, what is now, Israel. Most of these Palestinians have lived all their lives in what is basically an open air prison, they cannot leave. They have no airstrip, they cannot leave by boat because of Israeli restrictions. Where do they go?

Foxie48

No I’m not wrong, you are.

I watched a very good interview with Bill Clinton. He had worked very hard to secure a deal and Arafat refused at the last minute, basically because the Palestinian demands weren’t being met 100%. Basically they wanted a one state solution. This is still the problem.

Elegran

Equally, tickingbird Since "Netanyahu, the IDF and a large part of Jews in Israel have been very loud and explicit, in saying they want all Palestinians to be obliterated, for the whole of Gaza and the West Bank to be flattened- so they can take over." as Fleurpepper posts, is THAT any start for a reasoned discussion?"^ As always, compromise is the step that the other party must take.

If both parties could realise that they are acting as mirror images of one another, and try a new approach that admits that their counterparts are human, too, and acting at least partly out of fear, who knows what coud be achieved?

Actually Fleurpepper told us a few weeks ago that large numbers of Israelis didn’t support what BN and the IDF were doing in Gaza, now she says the opposite.Hmmm.
The IDF is not acting as a mirror image to hamas unless you have evidence of multiple rapes, beheadings and tying people up including kids and burning them.No, thought not.
As to Fleurpepper’s assertion that it isn’t a war ( it def is) over a hundred IDF soldiers have been killed by hamas members in Gaza recently.
Hamas won’t hand over the hostages so the war will go on until Israel achieves it’s stated aims.

tickingbird

Foxie48

No I’m not wrong, you are.

I watched a very good interview with Bill Clinton. He had worked very hard to secure a deal and Arafat refused at the last minute, basically because the Palestinian demands weren’t being met 100%. Basically they wanted a one state solution. This is still the problem.

Bill Clinton will give accounts based on his own perceptions. Of course the man is an acknowledged liar.

Accounts of what caused the breakdown of the talks vary considerably, but several sources say the Israelis gave little and the Palestinians conceded much, but wanted the right to return left open for debate. Regardless of who was responsible Arafat received huge support for his stance from the Palestinian people, so arguably he was only representing their wishes.

Not saying the opposite at all. The Israelis, and Jews all over the world- are very divided. Some in the Netanyahu camp are calling for the absolute extermination of all Palestinians, civilians, children and all, and the full appropriation of Gaza and the West Banks. Others are saying that this is truly wrong, are the harshest critics of Netanyahu and the IDF, what they are doing now, and all that they stand for. The old Zionist dream of the whole of Palestine being the land of Israel.

VERY divided. And those who dare criticise Netanyahu and the IDF, are suffering from the worst kind of Antisemtism- as in a civil war. Jew against Jew.

100 soldiers? And how many innocent civilians and children in Palestine.

Some lives seem to count for so much more. As they have done in so many instances in the past. Including in the 30s and 40s.

The IDF is not acting as a mirror image to hamas unless you have evidence of multiple rapes, beheadings and tying people up including kids and burning them.No, thought not.
Israelis have been raping Palestinian women for years. So much so that they even have a word for it
The violence and harassment that these women are forced to endure is deemed acceptable under Israeli national security, as it is justified as a vital method of protection for the state. The insecurities and abuses that Palestinian women face are intrinsically connected to the Palestinian national discourse that claims their bodies as an imagined national body, thus leaving their bodies vulnerable to weaponization. This term “weaponization” refers to the use of women’s bodies as weapons under patriarchal forces in their conflicts. The term isqat, which translates directly as downfall, clarifies how women’s bodies have been used as weapons against the Palestinian national struggle, done so by attacking particular women victims and targeting gender relations in Palestinian society. Isqat encompasses sexual abuse of Palestinian women as a means to collect “security information.” The term does not acknowledge the human rights or experience of these victimized women, but rather is meant to reveal how military powers use patriarchal perceptions of sexuality and honor to breakdown individual women and their families personally, socially, and politically. Thus, Palestinian women’s bodies are used as a weapon against them, positioning them against the struggle for nationhood and resistance.
Israel currently holds between 4000 and 8000 Palestinian prisoners many without trial, some of.these are children.
Children have also been killed by Israel. Some say over 3000 in the last 20 years.
interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2021/palestine-know-their-names/index.html?traffic_source=KeepReading&utm_source=aljazeera.com&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=ucms

It is so wrong to claim one side has the high moral ground in this conflict.

What I actually said was "If both parties could realise that they are acting as mirror images of one another . ." not that the IDF was a mirror image of Hamas. My version was that they were each behaving like the other, not just that IDF was copying Hamas. That implies that the conflict was started by Hamas from a previously harmonious peace. ^That is not so. The Israelis and Palestinians have not lived together in relative peace since the State of Israel was formed after WW2."

Clinton is an acknowledged liar

Hamas meanwhile are bastions of truth and integrity!! 😂😂😂😂

I’ve seen less tripe in a butcher’s shop.
🥳🥳🥳🥳

Fleurpepper - my Jewish friends are anti the actions of the Israeli government. The divisions in the community on this reflect the divisions in society generally. They are certainly not being subjected “to the worst kind of Anti Semitism - as in civil war - Jew against Jew”
Inflammatory, exaggerated, sanctimonious comments about this terrible war don’t add anything constructive to any path towards peace.

tickingbird

^Clinton is an acknowledged liar^

Hamas meanwhile are bastions of truth and integrity!! 😂😂😂😂

I’ve seen less tripe in a butcher’s shop.
🥳🥳🥳🥳

Yes indeed

tickingbird

Foxie48

No I’m not wrong, you are.

I watched a very good interview with Bill Clinton. He had worked very hard to secure a deal and Arafat refused at the last minute, basically because the Palestinian demands weren’t being met 100%. Basically they wanted a one state solution. This is still the problem.

foreignpolicy.com/2023/09/13/oslo-accords-1993-anniversary-israel-palestine-peace-process-lessons/

As I'm sure you know the Nobel Peace Prize 1994 was awarded jointly to Yasser Arafat, Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin "for their efforts to create peace in the Middle East" The actual signing of the Oslo Accords took place in 1993. Rabin was assassinated the following year. I've posted a link to what I believe is a pretty fair and unbiased report on why they failed. It is well worth reading as it is written by someone who was there. It does not support your view that Arafat refused at the last minute or that he wanted a one state solution. It is true, however, that both Arafat and Rabin/ Peres had people in their own camps who did not want a two state solution. Netanyahu was one of them on the Israeli side and Arafat had Hamas. Anyway, there have been many wrongs on both sides, Arafat may have been a terrorist but three of the Israeli prime ministers have also been wanted terrorists. This is a part of the world where people have learned to use violence to achieve their aims rather than negotiation but the Oslo Accords negotiations got Israelis and Palestinians around the same table and it might have changed the world for millions of people.