National Trust calendar - no Christian festivals

Association with the mediaeval Lord of Misrule is convincing, but I don't recall the giving of gifts and a specific association with children being cites as part of the role

I think that’s the key factor: Christmas in this country was not for children. That’s why I think St Nicholas/boy bishops largesse to kids is unlikely to have been seen as related to Christmas by most people.

Maizie I’ve never fallen out with anyone over a historical interpretation, and I am sorry if I gave that impression. I like a good historical debate though! Interesting article (also by an EH employee - their staff meeting must be lively. I wonder how much of the largesse was associated in people’s minds with Christmas? I don’t think the two facets are mutually exclusive, but I still stand by the thesis that the figure of ‘father Christmas’ was not, in this country, part of a ‘giving gifts to children’ tradition, and I don’t think St Nicholas would have had traction in that role, especially post- reformation.

Who's the weird Tin Man I wonder

The statue is called Gallos. Most people think it’s Arthur but EH won’t say so - they say it represents not only the legend of Arthur but the royal heritage and historic importance of Tintagel.

Getting better by the hour. The EH CEO mentioned Tintagel in my neighbouring county, and dogs are allowed!
Who's the weird Tin Man I wonder? He could dress up as Father Christmas.

Interesting explanation, Siope.

I do feel that the EH historian has glossed over the fact that St Nicholas was a significant saint in the English mediaeval church calendar, with rituals associated with his saints day:

www.thetablet.co.uk/blogs/1/1658/exalting-the-meek-in-the-middle-ages-st-nicholas-and-the-boy-bishops

Association with the mediaeval Lord of Misrule is convincing, but I don't recall the giving of gifts and a specific association with children being cites as part of the role...

However, it's not point worth falling out over...

He's right, History by it's very nature is often painful and we need to acknowledge this.

Joseann I volunteer with them (not at Dartmouth) so I’m all in favour of more members. I’m not sure dogs are allowed at all properties.

The incoming CEO has some interesting things to say on what makes good history, and how heritage organisations need to be honest

www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/nov/24/colonial-past-must-be-in-mainstream-of-uk-history-says-new-english-heritage-chief

Thanks for that, Siope, very interesting and pretty much along the lines of how I understood it.

I've defected to English Heritage. Apparently they allow dogs on leads! (Dartmouth Castle, here I come).

That link also manages to feature Kris Kringle for bonus points.

It does not mention that there is a school of thought that the sleigh and reindeer are a reference (or folk memory?) to the northern European pagan myth of the Wild Hunt flying across the midnight, midwinter sky.

It is now, Siope, but he was still originally a christian saint. Who gave presents anonymously

Well… that’s Santa Claus (from St Nicholas via Sinter Klaus, probably taken to America by the Dutch when they established New Amsterdam).

There is an entirely separate, English, history for Father Christmas, a symbol for adult enjoyment of Christmas, not one bit religious, and nothing to do with present-giving either. Christmas was seen as primarily an adult festival here.

The change comes in Victorian Britain, when there was a shift to more family focused Christmases and Santa Claus began to merge with Father Christmas.

www.english-heritage.org.uk/christmas/the-history-of-father-christmas/

Original meaning of 'calendar' - division of the year into months and days.

Like Santa, it's deviated considerably from its roots

Synonyms of calendar
schedule.
agenda.
program.
timetable.
docket.
organization.
bill of fare.
card
Maybe the NT should have chosen a different word to describe their internal memo. Incidentally, my local council provide lists of dates for refuse collections which they call refuse calendars. No mention of any festivals on it, religious or otherwise!

I don’t need a calendar. I use my phone, which gives the dates of all the major festivals every year.

It's just the DT doing what they do best, inventing stories to advance their agenda
So many NT properties have Christmas decorations and events and they always have Easter things on.
It's a solitely eidiculous

This years Age Concern calendar shows no dates for Easter, Christmas, Mothers Day, Bank Holidays, when to alter clock etc - most unhelpful!

Siope - nice to see that Hilary McGrady has a sense of humour at least!

Thanks, choughdancer.

Joseann

Maybe the calendar is just a timetable or chart for volunteers, and you only pay attention to what actually concerns you.

'A schedule of events.' is one of the definitions of calendar So it need not be a printed one to hang on the wall, buy from a NT shop etc. Here it seems simply to be a document to help staff and volunteers know when other festivals happen.

No-one involved is rejecting or banning the mention of Christmas.

I think Father Christmas in the whole red-suit-white-beard-Rudolph-and-his-mates incarnation is decidedly secular.

It is now, Siope, but he was still originally a christian saint. Who gave presents anonymously...

www.biography.com/religious-figures/saint-nicholas

Joseann

How did he get from this, to this?

I expect in the same way that the christian festival of Christmas became secularised.

He's still known as Santa (Claus) by thousands of people, if not millions.

How did he get from this, to this?

I thought Father Christmas and Santa Claus were the same person?

Both based on St Nicholas who did good works, rescued people and gave away his wealth to the poor.

Oooh, now there’s a discussion point, Maizie.

I think Father Christmas in the whole red-suit-white-beard-Rudolph-and-his-mates incarnation is decidedly secular.

I’d maybe go further, but I have no evidence to support this: it’s possible that the majority of people in this country who tell their children the Father Christmas story /visit grottos/sneak presents to their kids and celebrate Christmas in some way are not actively, or at all, Christian, so can he really be seen as religious in any sense, regardless of his origin story?

I've never really understood it MaizieD, but to me Father Christmas isn't religious, but Santa Claus is?

Joseann

Yes, Dinahmo, Castle Drogo. To be fair, last time I went it was undergoing a makeover because it leaked! It has taken nearly ten years and cost £15 million, as you do! Father Christmas is back this year - now there's a non religious figure acceptable to all. 🎅

Except that Father Christmas isn't a non-religious figure 😁

PS let me know if you're down this way to visit.