6 Day Doctors Strike

PA’s don’t need the kind of qualifications that a student requires to get into medicine. They also earn more to begin with and it comes with much less responsibility.

There is also the issue of people thinking that a PA is a doctor or is a more senior doctor than junior doctors and thereby receiving false assurance. Another problem is ‘mission creep’ in that PA’s can be asked to take on duties which they are not trained for and which they sometimes don’t understand is beyond their competence. In fact, having read Urms’s distressing post, that is possibly what has happened in that case.

My dd is at the sharp end of misdiagnoses by PA’s, she’s adamant that she will not see a PA herself and that her family should not see them either.

The sad thing was we didn’t realise ‘it might be serious’ until the months went by and the symptoms became worse. Too late.

It’s no wonder that the waiting list for treatment is growing by the minute. 7 million? What does the BMA intend to do about that?

“We have always been clear that MAPs can play an important part in NHS teams, and doctors will continue to value, respect and support individual staff they work with. But MAPs roles and responsibilities are not clearly defined. We are seeing increased instances of MAPs encroaching on the role of doctors; they are not doctors, do not have a medical degree and do not have the extensive training and depth of knowledge that doctors do. As doctors, we are worried that patients and public do not understand what this could mean in respect of the level of experience and expertise in care they receive."

www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-calls-for-immediate-pause-on-recruitment-of-physician-associates

The BMA is asking for a pause in recruitment of Medical Associate Professionals until there are guarantees that they are properly regulated and supported. This is not the same as opposing the use of them in clinical settings. It is a question of safety and clarity which I would think anyone would support.

I have only ever seen a doctor for something that might be serious. I have regular checks for asthma and epilepsy from the nurses and the more senior nurse dealt with a wound on my leg after a fall which developed into an ulcer (gosh, that made me feel old!).

We saw a prescribing nurse too. Several times. She was lovely but focused her attention on the wrong aspects, prescribed too, for far too long. We trusted her but with hindsight (always a wonderful thing) we should have asked to see a GP. For a ‘second opinion’ as to our treatment. We didn’t. It’s my biggest ever regret of my life and I (we) have to live with that. God - we didn’t want to hurt her feelings as she was so kind. How foolish were we?

I am64 my stall isn’t full by any means. I could start by finding out which other countries use PAs and to what extent apart from America ….. I am not surprised to read that the BMA opposes the use of PAs.

I have read less than good reports about PAs. I don’t know if my surgery uses them - I hope not. The practice nurses are excellent, very experienced and I have full confidence in them. One is also qualified to prescribe certain drugs.

Well ronib. That post sets you’re stall out wonderfully

No PAs don’t earn more than doctors. Consultants earn substantial amounts. This route is closed to PAs.
America uses PAs.
I guess PAs are comfortable with a medium salary, less responsibility and are not in medicine to become rich.

We seem very unable to embrace new ways of working in the Uk.

Urmston, I saw a PA recently after a reaction to the sedative used in an unpleasant procedure I’d had 48 hours previously. I can’t imagine what it was like in your circumstances to be seen by someone much less well qualified and with little clinical experience. Your senior practice nurse is likely to have been more help.

I’m puzzled as to why these PA’s don’t study to be doctors…. Oh yes of course, they earn more. Do other countries have PAs

Urmstongran

I daren’t tell you about our experience with a PA last year. I cry when I think back over those important months when serious symptoms were missed and we just went along with recommendations that were, in the end, a complete red herring.

Urmstongran and I dare not tell you about our experiences with a London A&E department in August 2015. Only the skill of another London hospital after almost 4 weeks in intensive care saved a life.

Wales has not yet settled but junior doctors will be striking for the first time, later this month I think.

ronib

Does anyone know what level doctors are who follow a consultant doing ward rounds? As part of the entourage? Are they still students who are yet to complete the five year program?

"It's an opportunity for them to discuss things in detail with the patient and with the nursing and other staff. Details vary from ward to ward, but generally: Each consultant normally does a ward round once or twice per week. Registrars and junior doctors usually do a ward round daily Monday-Fhttps://www.gwh.nhs.uk/wards-and-services/inpatients/ward-rounds/riday."

Med students who are on placement will be asked to join if it is appropriate. The number of people will vary as will the level.

If 'junior' doctors are leaving the NHS and recruitment is inadequate to meet the needs then this Tory government is failing to get pay and conditions right. The so-called 'independent' review body has it's membership, terms of reference and maximum award determined by the Tories: they simply try to hide behind the 'independent' wording. Junior doctors are not mere students - many are very experienced and about to become consultants. Tory references to them as 'doctors in training' is intended to diminish them in the public eye but no-one with any sense is fooled. The fact that a settlement was achieved in Scotland suggests the Tories in England are incompetent.

I daren’t tell you about our experience with a PA last year. I cry when I think back over those important months when serious symptoms were missed and we just went along with recommendations that were, in the end, a complete red herring.

I don't recall people complaining pre 2010 and 'austerity' that junior doctors were overpaid or had an unfair pension advantage.

All they, and other public sector workers, are trying to do is restore their pay to the pre austerity levels, which no-one questioned as being excessive...

I’m with Maddyone on the use of physician associates. There are a number of issues with their use, particularly as substitutes for GP’s. They are not trained to recognise serious conditions and a number of people have died from misdiagnosis. There is also no regulatory body to oversee them although the govt is now putting something into place.

There is no way a PA can be as good or better than even a newly qualified medic, who, incidentally will have bags of clinical experience by the time they qualify. My own dd graduated in medicine at the start of the pandemic, when she put her life at risk to help others and people were out in the streets applauding her and her fellow health care professionals. Now, they’re greedy and, apparently, don’t care about anyone but themselves. My dd has been told that her cohort of graduates will likely be followed right through their careers to monitor the effects of the pandemic on them, which are likely to be profound.

Here’s a brief article outlining some of the issues with PA’s. www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/13/public-confused-over-physician-associates-working-in-nhs-research-finds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Thanks German shepherds mum. That seems reasonable.

What NHS says about doctors’ salaries:
www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors

And doctors receive a payment of 20.6% of their salary into their pension fund. I suspect your dog walker and behaviourist are self employed Iam, and are wholly responsible for building up such pension pots as they can afford.

I can’t take the umbrage and annoyance evidenced on here over the doctors strike, remotely seriously, when there is silence over the gaps in the day on day rosters, and excessive hours worked leading to risk to patients every day of the year.

I can’t understand why anyone sees £14 an hour as acceptable pay for a doctor.
The behaviourist helping me with one of my dogs charges the going rate -£60 an hour. Dog walkers here charge £15-20 an hour for pack walls, so £80 plus an hour.
Cleaners £20 per hour
Aldi checkout workers earn more than specialist nurses like the one who worked 12 hour shifts plus more when caring for my husband at end of life - her care extended to us.
This isn’t junior doctors trying to bring down a government Freya. It’s a govt determined to wreck the nhs and other public services so we become like America, everything privatised

MaizieD no need to be personal.

How much does an experienced PA get? I think the new head of the NHS Amanda P advocates different training methods/pathways. I would rather be treated by a PA than a year 1 medic.

You are arriving at some interesting points - I think each category is being rewarded for skill level. Clearly managers have a better understanding of Yr 1s entering hospitals in August than we have!