Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

A bit more accuracy, which I'm surprised yasnt been corrected here, is that the pupil is not 9 years old, but a teenager. Pupils do not attend the school until they are 11+.

*hasn't

Dickens

^The vegetarian menu accommodates all faiths. The question then is why couldn't KB find a solution that did something similar in this case? Would it have been OK if her solution to children having different diet requirements was no food on the premises?^

Glorianny Come on, that is so lame.

Everyone eats. Everyone can eat vegetables, etc. It was an obvious and easy solution.

Not everyone prays, nor is commanded to, and will not fade away if they don't. When religions impose their strict doctrines on its adherents, it divides, separates and 'others' those outside of it.

The very thing KB is determined to prevent.

👍
I actually think that food might be a far more emotive subject than prayer within the school environment!

SporeRB

As far as I know, praying requirement for Muslims does not apply to children only adults.

I might be wrong but I think they are encouraged to start prayer at age 7. By age 10, I think they have to be fully immersed in the ritual.

If that is a fact - I do not have any knowledge of the Qur’an - then, once again, it has to be asked - why did the parents choose this school? Its reputation regarding the multi-cultural melting-pot is hardly a secret?

Dickens

SporeRB

As far as I know, praying requirement for Muslims does not apply to children only adults.

I might be wrong but I think they are encouraged to start prayer at age 7. By age 10, I think they have to be fully immersed in the ritual.

If that is a fact - I do not have any knowledge of the Qur’an - then, once again, it has to be asked - why did the parents choose this school? Its reputation regarding the multi-cultural melting-pot is hardly a secret?

I am not an expert on the Muslim religion btw. In my country of origin, the Religious Muslim Council is a statutory body part of the government. Its role is to look after the interest of the Muslim community.

All schools must provide halal food for the Muslim students but not inter faith prayer rooms.

If the child want to pray, she can always pray at home.

Sorry. I got that wrong, she is not a 9 year old but the dreaded teenager.

Callistemon21

^So perhaps a little accuracy is required on this thread.^

Quoting a tiny part of a presentation of one side of a court case and claiming that is an accurate representation of the whole of the case from both sides is inaccurate and subjective.

I didn't say that it was comprehensive
However it is far more accurate than one girl making others pray. Or one set of parents demanding something.
And the numerous other inaccuracies that appear on this thread.
30 children wanted a space to pray.
They were not accommodated.
Some heads develop bees in their bonnets and see things as threats to their authority.
If children are raised watching the way others worship, meditate or pray then that becomes a normal part of life for them. Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate.

Making the point that demands made and accompanied by threats, bullying and coercion are acceptable to some people. This time, it’s about religion. Next time . . .

Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate

Now, as an atheist, would you defend Christianity to this extent Glorianny?

Glorianny

Taking this from your post above...

Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate.

One religion might well consider that another's is "separate" - because it is, as is theirs. That is the whole point. Do you see different faiths worshiping together in a universal House? Other than as visitors?

Religion is divisive. It cannot be otherwise. Because each separates itself from the other. As an atheist, I think all religions are alienating, though not all religious people follow the tenets and creeds of their religion to the letter, and some might have overlapping beliefs - but in general, religion separates. As KB has pointed out. Which is why she wants pupils to leave their 'religious shoes' at the door, so to speak.

Once she makes a concession, it could well be the thin end of the wedge - because it will not stop there. And as this goes against the whole concept of what the school is about, she is trying to prevent it.

You might not agree with her, and I'm not sure I do 100%, but her logic is sound.

Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate

I'm sure that, over the years, you have expressed the view that, in your opinion, belief in any religion is strange, even something to be mocked.

I remember you mocking Christianity on threads, finding jokes where some were upset when you disrespected their faith, but now you find it difficult to think that overt religious practices should be left at the school gate.

If you believe the latter should not be the case, do you think that followers of all religions should be allowed to practise their different religious beliefs throughout the school day at whatever times they please?

That was to Glorianny btw.

Callistemon21

^Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate^

Now, as an atheist, would you defend Christianity to this extent Glorianny?

Yes if people want to believe in God that is their right. My children's primary school had a prayer group which a teacher ran in a lunch time. I worked in RC schools, in C of E schools, in a school which had a close connection with the local church and had services in the church at various times of year. I led assemblies in accordance with the law. Sometimes we had visiting officials from other religions. Why on earth would I not defend a child's right especially by the age of 11 to worship as they wish, whatever their faith. Or indeed any adult for that matter. As far as I know prayer causes no harm to anyone. I may not believe in a supreme being, I certainly believe in choice.

Callistemon21

^Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate^

I'm sure that, over the years, you have expressed the view that, in your opinion, belief in any religion is strange, even something to be mocked.

I remember you mocking Christianity on threads, finding jokes where some were upset when you disrespected their faith, but now you find it difficult to think that overt religious practices should be left at the school gate.

If you believe the latter should not be the case, do you think that followers of all religions should be allowed to practise their different religious beliefs throughout the school day at whatever times they please?

I think you mistake, me finding the practices of some people who profess to be Christian, somewhat at odds with the basic beliefs of the faith, as an assertion that I would deny them the right to practise that faith. I think it's fine to believe and pray. I just think the practical application is sometimes lacking.

Dickens

Glorianny

Taking this from your post above...

Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate.

One religion might well consider that another's is "separate" - because it is, as is theirs. That is the whole point. Do you see different faiths worshiping together in a universal House? Other than as visitors?

Religion is divisive. It cannot be otherwise. Because each separates itself from the other. As an atheist, I think all religions are alienating, though not all religious people follow the tenets and creeds of their religion to the letter, and some might have overlapping beliefs - but in general, religion separates. As KB has pointed out. Which is why she wants pupils to leave their 'religious shoes' at the door, so to speak.

Once she makes a concession, it could well be the thin end of the wedge - because it will not stop there. And as this goes against the whole concept of what the school is about, she is trying to prevent it.

You might not agree with her, and I'm not sure I do 100%, but her logic is sound.

Of course religion isn't always divisive, although it can be.
I wonder why you would imagine that..
If religion separates children and educates them in isolation it can cause division, but the practise of faith in a school which serves the community shouldn't be divisive and can lead to more understanding of other faiths.
Most of the places of worship I know welcome visits from children to learn about that faith and further understanding. Spaces for prayer and meditation are just an extension of that.

Glorianny says
As far as I know prayer causes no harm to anyone.
But all those (except you, Glorian y,) who have read this thread are aware that prayer did indeed cause harm here.
We don’t know whether the words of the prayers were inflammatory. Probably not or we would have heard about it, but the actions of those making demands involving threatening, bullying and coercion linked to the act of prayer were certainly harmful.

It’s OK. You needn’t respond Glorian y.

Until the subject raised by this thread

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate

I'm sure that, over the years, you have expressed the view that, in your opinion, belief in any religion is strange, even something to be mocked.

I remember you mocking Christianity on threads, finding jokes where some were upset when you disrespected their faith, but now you find it difficult to think that overt religious practices should be left at the school gate.

If you believe the latter should not be the case, do you think that followers of all religions should be allowed to practise their different religious beliefs throughout the school day at whatever times they please?

I think you mistake, me finding the practices of some people who profess to be Christian, somewhat at odds with the basic beliefs of the faith, as an assertion that I would deny them the right to practise that faith. I think it's fine to believe and pray. I just think the practical application is sometimes lacking.

Thst's not what I said.

I said you mocked Christians for their beliefs.

Mollygo

Glorianny says
As far as I know prayer causes no harm to anyone.
But all those (except you, Glorian y,) who have read this thread are aware that prayer did indeed cause harm here.
We don’t know whether the words of the prayers were inflammatory. Probably not or we would have heard about it, but the actions of those making demands involving threatening, bullying and coercion linked to the act of prayer were certainly harmful.

It’s OK. You needn’t respond Glorian y.

Until the subject raised by this thread

It wasn't the prayer which caused the harm. It was the sight of children kneeling on their blazers in the playground which caused upset.
There are certain conventions in Muslim prayer including leaving shoes at the door. It's quite a reasonable idea because Muslims touch their heads to the ground so a clean floor is desirable. It's one reason they use prayer mats. Seeing children doing it in the playground on blazers would upset some people.
But it need never have reached such a level.

Glorianny

Mollygo

Glorianny says
As far as I know prayer causes no harm to anyone.
But all those (except you, Glorian y,) who have read this thread are aware that prayer did indeed cause harm here.
We don’t know whether the words of the prayers were inflammatory. Probably not or we would have heard about it, but the actions of those making demands involving threatening, bullying and coercion linked to the act of prayer were certainly harmful.

It’s OK. You needn’t respond Glorian y.

Until the subject raised by this thread

It wasn't the prayer which caused the harm. It was the sight of children kneeling on their blazers in the playground which caused upset.
There are certain conventions in Muslim prayer including leaving shoes at the door. It's quite a reasonable idea because Muslims touch their heads to the ground so a clean floor is desirable. It's one reason they use prayer mats. Seeing children doing it in the playground on blazers would upset some people.
But it need never have reached such a level.

And as far as what is said goes we know exactly
It is a form of ritual and is carefully set out
Note the instruction about a clean place.
raleighmasjid.org/how-to-perform-salah/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CAll%20praises%20and%20thanks%20be,Your%20anger%20or%20went%20astray.%E2%80%9D

Glorianny says
As far as I know prayer causes no harm to anyone.
But all those (except you, Glorian y,) who have read this thread are aware that prayer did indeed cause harm here.
We don’t know whether the words of the prayers were inflammatory. Probably not or we would have heard about it, but the actions of those making demands involving threatening, bullying and coercion linked.

Do you know Glorianny, I’m sure I’ve read several times from you that you aren’t going to answer my posts.
I don’t care if you do reply. I have never objected to you responding, but it seems a shame that you need to lie about not answering them.

Callistemon21

^Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate^

I'm sure that, over the years, you have expressed the view that, in your opinion, belief in any religion is strange, even something to be mocked.

I remember you mocking Christianity on threads, finding jokes where some were upset when you disrespected their faith, but now you find it difficult to think that overt religious practices should be left at the school gate.

If you believe the latter should not be the case, do you think that followers of all religions should be allowed to practise their different religious beliefs throughout the school day at whatever times they please?

I think KB is in a very difficult position now. The escalation of threats, violence, abuse and intimidation - from whoever and whence ever it's from is not going to go away regardless of the Court's decision. I don't envy her one bit.

From what I can gather, it is not the actual praying that she opposes - I think she earlier said something along those lines - that children can sit and pray quietly 'in their heads' so to speak. It's the ritualisation of prayer that she opposes. And praying in the playground kneeling on the ground in our climate really is not ideal at all. But she says there is not room - this is not a purpose-built school, it's an office building, to accommodate a prayer room - or rooms.

🤷‍♀️ What do do?

I don't understand the mocking of religion. I might have done, as a know-it-all teenager, but with maturity comes understanding and hopefully a bit of wisdom. I hope I have never offended anyone, from any religion, as an atheist. I understand the need for 'spirituality' (if that's the right word) and there's no denying that there are some very good people of faith who put their money where.... etc, etc. Not to mention the fact that religion is and has been a great comfort to people in times of deep sadness, or who might be surviving under unimaginable horrors. And I'm not averse myself to sitting quietly in contemplation in a church, either. I'm also moved by great religious choral works... Bach's Christmas Oratorio, for example which I make a point of listening to every Christmas Eve, and onward. I think atheists come in many different shapes and sizes.

Anyway, enough rambling. I had to get up to feed the cat howling at the bedroom door, and am wide awake now.

Mollygo

Glorianny says
As far as I know prayer causes no harm to anyone.
But all those (except you, Glorian y,) who have read this thread are aware that prayer did indeed cause harm here.
We don’t know whether the words of the prayers were inflammatory. Probably not or we would have heard about it, but the actions of those making demands involving threatening, bullying and coercion linked.

Do you know Glorianny, I’m sure I’ve read several times from you that you aren’t going to answer my posts.
I don’t care if you do reply. I have never objected to you responding, but it seems a shame that you need to lie about not answering them.

Mollygo I stopped answering your posts on another thread when you posted smiling faces in a discussion about the slaughter in Gaza. I make no apology for reacting to that.

Dickens

Callistemon21

Division begins when people regard another's religious or cultural practices as something strange and separate

I'm sure that, over the years, you have expressed the view that, in your opinion, belief in any religion is strange, even something to be mocked.

I remember you mocking Christianity on threads, finding jokes where some were upset when you disrespected their faith, but now you find it difficult to think that overt religious practices should be left at the school gate.

If you believe the latter should not be the case, do you think that followers of all religions should be allowed to practise their different religious beliefs throughout the school day at whatever times they please?

I think KB is in a very difficult position now. The escalation of threats, violence, abuse and intimidation - from whoever and whence ever it's from is not going to go away regardless of the Court's decision. I don't envy her one bit.

From what I can gather, it is not the actual praying that she opposes - I think she earlier said something along those lines - that children can sit and pray quietly 'in their heads' so to speak. It's the ritualisation of prayer that she opposes. And praying in the playground kneeling on the ground in our climate really is not ideal at all. But she says there is not room - this is not a purpose-built school, it's an office building, to accommodate a prayer room - or rooms.

🤷‍♀️ What do do?

I don't understand the mocking of religion. I might have done, as a know-it-all teenager, but with maturity comes understanding and hopefully a bit of wisdom. I hope I have never offended anyone, from any religion, as an atheist. I understand the need for 'spirituality' (if that's the right word) and there's no denying that there are some very good people of faith who put their money where.... etc, etc. Not to mention the fact that religion is and has been a great comfort to people in times of deep sadness, or who might be surviving under unimaginable horrors. And I'm not averse myself to sitting quietly in contemplation in a church, either. I'm also moved by great religious choral works... Bach's Christmas Oratorio, for example which I make a point of listening to every Christmas Eve, and onward. I think atheists come in many different shapes and sizes.

Anyway, enough rambling. I had to get up to feed the cat howling at the bedroom door, and am wide awake now.

I think that's interesting Dickens unfortunately such a view is actually discriminatory. Some religions have rituals which are more obvious than others. I suppose it would be OK for a RC child to stand quietly telling their rosary. (which they had concealed in their pocket) but not for a Muslim child to kneel and bow.
The school has an extensive programme of clubs and activities, if they can be accommodated I think a short period of prayer could be.

Nice wriggle Glorian y, but you have said on several threads that you won’t answer my posts and it turns out to be untrue.
Discrimination incidentally is a two way action. If this girl wins her case, it simply means that those who support her see bullying, threats, and coercion as the best way to achieve what you want, this time in terms of religion, but very similar to the tactics of another group we know.

I wonder what part of "we do not have a prayer room, your child will not have access to a prayer room" as stated by the headteacher people do not understand? Every parent is fully informed of the rules of the school before accepting a place there for their child.

The school has a 'silent corridors' policy which all families are made aware of before they join the school. Do people think that should be up for challenge too? What about the school uniform policy? Decide you don't like it now so you're not going to comply?

The Muslim children who joined the school knowing there is no prayer room were able to pray outside if they wished. Some people that saw them praying objected to there not being a prayer room and started the bombardment of the school and its teachers. This escalated to death threats, racial abuse of a black teacher, a bomb threat and more which led the board of governors to decide the only remedy was to ban prayer outside. Now the school is unsettled because some people think they're above keeping well publicised rules.

The school has an extensive programme of clubs and activities, if they can be accommodated I think a short period of prayer could be.
In your opinion, Glorianny.
However, I would imagine that the Clubs and activities at Michaela - like Art, Chess, Games etc - are run by teachers, who might also be paid for organising these "extra curricular" sessions. I am, therefore, pretty sure that no teacher in their right mind at the school is going to want to go against the school's secular ethos by supervising prayer sessions in the same vein. And certainly not receive remuneration for it. There is no evidence, is there, that capable staff were willing to take this on? I think that speaks for itself.