Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

That's the problem with taking a proposal to its ultimate conclusion, it makes you realise how stupid it is.

Exactly.
Equally true
Giving in to one demand that has been brought in as a result of bullying,
taking it to its ultimate conclusion means that all demands enforced by bullying should be fulfilled.

Mollygo

*That's the problem with taking a proposal to its ultimate conclusion, it makes you realise how stupid it is.*

Exactly.
Equally true
Giving in to one demand that has been brought in as a result of bullying,
taking it to its ultimate conclusion means that all demands enforced by bullying should be fulfilled.

So you agree not having a prayer room and banning prayer because children might be bullied is wrong.

No I think your idea of taking anything to its natural conclusion will include bullying to get anything you want-and that’s wrong.

Mollygo

No I think your idea of taking anything to its natural conclusion will include bullying to get anything you want-and that’s wrong.

But the bullying is being used as a reason to not have a prayer room. Is it OK for some bullying to be effective but not others?
And there isn't a prayer room.

For goodness sake it’s quite clear that provision of a prayer room is the tip of the iceberg.

Anniel

Why are posters on this thread who would probably regard themselves as socialists suddenly opposing this secular school. I had no idea that they were supporters of religious faith. Could it be that the main reason a few Grans are stirring the
Proverbial is because they dislike Katherine Birbalsingh is purely because she is a Conservative and we cannot have our schools being lead by such people.

The same reason the anti royalists leap to the defence of Harry and Meghan.

tickingbird

For goodness sake it’s quite clear that provision of a prayer room is the tip of the iceberg.

So what is the bit under the water that I can't see??

tickingbird

Anniel

Why are posters on this thread who would probably regard themselves as socialists suddenly opposing this secular school. I had no idea that they were supporters of religious faith. Could it be that the main reason a few Grans are stirring the
Proverbial is because they dislike Katherine Birbalsingh is purely because she is a Conservative and we cannot have our schools being lead by such people.

The same reason the anti royalists leap to the defence of Harry and Meghan.

A school can be secular. It can't make its pupils secular. If a pupil has a faith they have the right to observe that faith.

This school isn't truly secular anyway. It has practices which are closely connected with faiths.

Glorianny

tickingbird

For goodness sake it’s quite clear that provision of a prayer room is the tip of the iceberg.

So what is the bit under the water that I can't see??

A tsunami?

My question would be, isn't children's free time (lunch time, play time) on the timetable expressly to learn life skills, to socialise with others, and not to isolate or segregate themselves in prayer rooms? We don't want anything setting one child apart from other children.

Glorianny,

If you were given information when joining any organisation if it said we do not support any religion would you sign up if you were a devout religious believer? I know that you are referring to the school singing the National Anthem but this is OUR national anthem and all citizens of all faiths who live in UK join together to sing it. If you despise the monarchy you can refuse to sing it. Not all of us who do belong to a religious faith, so do not use that argument to claim the school is not secular. If you do not accept the ethos of any organisation then the answer is simple DO NOT JOIN.

I'm sort of struggling a bit with all this, coming from East London schools where you struggle to count the number of children who aren't of various faiths, ethnicities, etc.
To then find myself again in white, old fashioned Devon where a spade is a spade, and the land is king and British traditions abound. Is this all to do with geographical location too?

Oh yes, Anniel and shock, horror, maypole dancing in school which I was ridiculed for by one poster (no longer with us).

Anniel

Glorianny,

If you were given information when joining any organisation if it said we do not support any religion would you sign up if you were a devout religious believer? I know that you are referring to the school singing the National Anthem but this is OUR national anthem and all citizens of all faiths who live in UK join together to sing it. If you despise the monarchy you can refuse to sing it. Not all of us who do belong to a religious faith, so do not use that argument to claim the school is not secular. If you do not accept the ethos of any organisation then the answer is simple DO NOT JOIN.

If the dominant religion of a country is not the one I practice I might well think a secular school would be more suitable for my child. However it would be the teaching I would be looking at. I wouldn't expect the school to stop my child practising their own religion in lunch or break times, or after school.

Might your child not be the poorer for it socially though, Glorianny?

Joseann

Might your child not be the poorer for it socially though, Glorianny?

Why would 10-15 mins taken to pray make a child less sociable?
Is it the separation?
If so are detentions of equal harm?

Detentions are an appalling practise

(Joseann

Might your child not be the poorer for it socially though, Glorianny?)

A good question! Almost undoubtedly, Joseann, However education is for independent thinking , scepticism, and questioning ----not following the crowd.

Caleo

(Joseann

Might your child not be the poorer for it socially though, Glorianny?)

A good question! Almost undoubtedly, Joseann, However education is for independent thinking , scepticism, and questioning ----not following the crowd.

In Michaela school education is definitely not about any of those things!

Glorianny

So what is the bit under the water that I can't see??

Sense?

Joseann

Glorianny

tickingbird

For goodness sake it’s quite clear that provision of a prayer room is the tip of the iceberg.

So what is the bit under the water that I can't see??

A tsunami?

My question would be, isn't children's free time (lunch time, play time) on the timetable expressly to learn life skills, to socialise with others, and not to isolate or segregate themselves in prayer rooms? We don't want anything setting one child apart from other children.

Strangely, if a child's parents owe money for school lunch, the punishment is to segregate them and make them eat a sandwich on their own. Why should pupils whose parents have, for whatever reason, not paid, be denied the benefits of socialisation?

Part of "British values" is understanding that others have different needs and tolerating them. We're talking about a few minutes during the day!

tickingbird

Glorianny

So what is the bit under the water that I can't see??

Sense?

In that case shouldn't we all be hitting that iceberg?
As it might do for us all what my mother said I needed "Knock a bit of sense into you"

Glorianny

Joseann

Might your child not be the poorer for it socially though, Glorianny?

Why would 10-15 mins taken to pray make a child less sociable?
Is it the separation?
If so are detentions of equal harm?

My son-in-law went to a highly academic independent secondary school. They have five assemblies and pupils can choose which one they go to. For the first couple of years, he went to the Muslim one (to please his parents) then he started going to the non-religious assembly and then went to the Christian and Hindu ones to find out what they were all about. I don't think it made him any less sociable or think any less of the school as an institution.

growstuff

Joseann

Glorianny

tickingbird

For goodness sake it’s quite clear that provision of a prayer room is the tip of the iceberg.

So what is the bit under the water that I can't see??

A tsunami?

My question would be, isn't children's free time (lunch time, play time) on the timetable expressly to learn life skills, to socialise with others, and not to isolate or segregate themselves in prayer rooms? We don't want anything setting one child apart from other children.

Strangely, if a child's parents owe money for school lunch, the punishment is to segregate them and make them eat a sandwich on their own. Why should pupils whose parents have, for whatever reason, not paid, be denied the benefits of socialisation?

Part of "British values" is understanding that others have different needs and tolerating them. We're talking about a few minutes during the day!

That was just one child whose parent consistently failed to pay for school lunches.
It has happened at other schools too.

Whilst I agree that it is wrong and discriminatory to take that action, schools are run on strict budgets.

The problem arises, too, when there is a rule not allowing pupils to bring packed lunches. Paying for school meals for some people just above the threshold for free school meals could be difficult, especially with several children in the family. Buying food to make packed lunches would be cheaper.

I’m struggling with understanding with some arguments on this thread.

No prayers, no packed lunches, vegetarian meals, fish on Fridays along with an early finish…all things that parents of all religions (or none) are aware of and agree to before sending their child there.

So what changes? Do the parents and/or child suddenly become devout and decide the school must change to accommodate their own religion?

The parents are not aware that their children aren't allowed to pray.