Boy, 4y, allowed to join CoE school as a girl.

Glorianny

Callistemon21

I just made up a new word:
Suffrageaphobia 😁

It's the fear (actually expressed in the 19th Century) that women might change gender if given the vote.

Actually no one feared they would change gender. Nor was it anything to do with the vote. It was feared that if women were educated their reproductive organs would wither and they would be unable to have children
.
Interestingly if you go by birth numbers educated women have fewer children, but of course more of them survive.

In the 21st century it is very sad that some still view anything to do with sex or gender as harmful and have fixed views about it, instead of looking at individuals and their situation.

FGS!!
😂😂😂

I used to child mind a little 5yr boy he had a pram dolly dress up sets etc his mum didn’t find an issue with it his dad well he would let him leave my house if he was weak his dress. He’s now 30 little boy with a son of his own and a wife and he’s disgusted his mum let him go out like that. But if you can’t have sex until 16 you shouldn’t be able to change your sex until then too. My oldest granddaughter is in a all girls school and I think her parents would have plenty to say if a boy was allowed in there school

Oldbat1

Grandsons comp local authority school toilets are all mixed sex/gender neutral all seemingly have a gap at the top and a gap at the bottom of each “stall”. No privacy at all. All these toilets also open out to the main corridor. He refuses to use the toilets (as would I) the teaching staff/admin staff are also expected to use these toilets. It is a fairly new build school. How ridiculous. He rushes in from school every day and makes a bee line to the loo.

My 12yr old granddaughter has the same issue at her school she refuses to go at school and holds it in until she gets home too.

Oldbat - may I ask why does your grandchild feel unhappy with the lavatory opening onto the main corridor? I understand that this design was in response to student requests to avoid any potential bad behaviour/ threats/ bullying in communal loo areas, safely away from adult eyes.
This is the common pattern now in some new build shopping centres and solves the problem of daddy in charge of a little girl whilst out, or mummy with a small boy.

My understanding of Oldbat's post is her GS is uncomfortable with the gender neutral facilities, used by students and staff as well as the door opening onto the corridor.

Doodledog

*Actually no one feared they would change gender. Nor was it anything to do with the vote. It was feared that if women were educated their reproductive organs would wither and they would be unable to have children*
Not quite true. I agree that it is unlikely that suffrage was discussed in terms of 'gender' as that is a recent invention, but it most certainly was believed that getting the vote would make women more masculine, which ties in with the stereotypical way of discussing 'gender' in the 21st century.

It says "Includes the vote" and the basis was that education changed women's reproductive organs and gender wasn't mentioned because the 17th and 18th century belief that men's and women's bodies were the same didn't divide people into genders. In fact it was believed then that the body could change in a life time and women's bodies had the same physical characteristics as men, but the organs were internal and shrunk. www.oldbaileyonline.org/about/gender

Interesting how people who are happy to support lies about sex, are so quick to jump on any perceived inaccuracies.

^it was believed women’s bodies had
same physical characteristics as men, but the organs were internal and shrunk.^

Well, basing it on what happens to men’s organs, I can see why people, especially men might think that was true.

Mollygo

Interesting how people who are happy to support lies about sex, are so quick to jump on any perceived inaccuracies.

^it was believed women’s bodies had
same physical characteristics as men, but the organs were internal and shrunk.^

*Well, basing it on what happens to men’s organs, I can see why people, especially men might think that was true.*

Now who is confusing sex and gender???

I don’t confuse sex and gender G dear. That’s your choice of action.

Mollygo

Interesting how people who are happy to support lies about sex, are so quick to jump on any perceived inaccuracies.

^it was believed women’s bodies had
same physical characteristics as men, but the organs were internal and shrunk.^

*Well, basing it on what happens to men’s organs, I can see why people, especially men might think that was true.*

😂😂😂

Perhaps Mollygo you could enlighten me about who has told lies about sex?
As far as I know the sex of any child entering a school is only known to those who have the child's personal details.
And is not revealed to others.
All else is gender based.

I’ve already answered that question Glorianny. I have a class list for all the children which contains their name, sex and date of birth. So if the head tells me that a boy is a girl, that’s a lie. If someone, child or adult asks me if Charlie is a boy or a girl am I supposed to lie?

How can anyone tell lies about ‘gender’. It’s entirely conceptual and meaningless. Sex can be lied about - eg when a man says he is a woman.

It doesn’t matter who knows the truth about something - a lie is still a lie if the person telling it is aware it is untrue. Who knows whether the poor child was lying, misled or confused- he is a victim in all of this. The parents, the HT and any staff who were aware of his sex were lying. I don’t think it is complicated or nuanced, even in the Looking Glass world we now seem to inhabit.

Mollygo

I’ve already answered that question Glorianny. I have a class list for all the children which contains their name, sex and date of birth. So if the head tells me that a boy is a girl, that’s a lie. If someone, child or adult asks me if Charlie is a boy or a girl am I supposed to lie?

No you are supposed to say that the sex is none of their business and confidential (as the parents would have asked you to)
Then treat the child as they present which is all others need (or are allowed) to know.

So, Glorianny, would you lie?
Do you accept that the parents in this circumstance are lying and expecting the teacher and staff to lie?
Do you think lying is OK?
Read Doodledog’s comment on gender.

Doodledog

How can anyone tell lies about ‘gender’. It’s entirely conceptual and meaningless. Sex can be lied about - eg when a man says he is a woman.

It doesn’t matter who knows the truth about something - a lie is still a lie if the person telling it is aware it is untrue. Who knows whether the poor child was lying, misled or confused- he is a victim in all of this. The parents, the HT and any staff who were aware of his sex were lying. I don’t think it is complicated or nuanced, even in the Looking Glass world we now seem to inhabit.

No one was lying. If the parents asked it be made confidential information, that was all that needed to be known.

Are you saying every single child has their sex confirmed in some way by every single adult they meet? Of course they don't we use the gender characteristics we pick up.

As far as I can see the only solution offered to this problem was that the parents should be told their child's sex could not be confidential. This could of course have been discussed when the child was enrolled. The parents might not want their child to attend school with those conditions. So would it have been better for them to have kept the child at home?
If that was the choice isn't the child safer in school where the relevant professionals can become involved.?

If you read back, you will see that your solution is the one I have suggested on several occasions. Do you only skim posts looking for 'gotchas'? As I said more than once, the HT could have kept the request confidential, but told the parents that it would not be accommodated. The parents 'might not have wanted their child to attend school with those conditions'? Tough. If they choose to home educate, which many people do, that is their right. If they find another school that suits the conditions they are imposing, they can send the child there, and they can access relevant professionals themselves - the 'relevant professionals' at that school weren't doing a good job anyway. They were disregarding advice and deceiving other parents.

I know that many people don't like to be told 'no', but life doesn't work like that. If I didn't want my child to attend a school where the sex of the children was a secret, whose child would get the place?

Are you saying every single child has their sex confirmed in some way by every single adult they meet?
You really do make some extreme logical leaps in the hope of a 'gotcha', don't you? Of course I'm saying nothing of the sort, and I have neither said nor suggested anything of the kind.

Doodledog

If you read back, you will see that your solution is the one I have suggested on several occasions. Do you only skim posts looking for 'gotchas'? As I said more than once, the HT could have kept the request confidential, but told the parents that it would not be accommodated. The parents 'might not have wanted their child to attend school with those conditions'? Tough. If they choose to home educate, which many people do, that is their right. If they find another school that suits the conditions they are imposing, they can send the child there, and they can access relevant professionals themselves - the 'relevant professionals' at that school weren't doing a good job anyway. They were disregarding advice and deceiving other parents.

I know that many people don't like to be told 'no', but life doesn't work like that. If I didn't want my child to attend a school where the sex of the children was a secret, whose child would get the place?

Are you saying every single child has their sex confirmed in some way by every single adult they meet?
You really do make some extreme logical leaps in the hope of a 'gotcha', don't you? Of course I'm saying nothing of the sort, and I have neither said nor suggested anything of the kind.

So if the child isn't really trans but the parents have been somehow manipulating them you are quite happy for that child to stay home with those parents rather than tackle the difficult issue of getting him into school.
Isn't that just washing your hands of the matter?
Isn't school exactly where such children should be so that they can receive help and support from professionals, whether they are trans or not.

So if the child isn't really trans but the parents have been somehow manipulating them you are quite happy for that child to stay home with those parents rather than tackle the difficult issue of getting him into school.
Isn't that just washing your hands of the matter?
Isn't school exactly where such children should be so that they can receive help and support from professionals, whether they are trans or not.
Lovely twisting Glorianny.
What sort of help do you propose a child who is being lied to and being asked to lie needs to have?
You still haven’t answered whether you are happy for people to lie about their sex, or the sex of their children or anything really.

I think sex is a confidential issue. Mollygo
I don't see anyone lying about it simply saying it is confidential.

I would hope no matter why they are behaving as they are the school would refer the child to specialist help, probably to CAHMs, and certainly to a qualified professional. I realise that there will be a substantial wait involved, but the process would be started and the problems this child will undoubtedly encounter would stand some chance of being dealt with.

Why would anyone insist he shouldn't be admitted simply because they think keeping something confidential is lying. That's to do with your conscience. Resolve it without penalising the child.

Why would anyone insist he shouldn't be admitted simply because they think keeping something confidential is lying. That's to do with your conscience. Resolve it without penalising the child.

I haven’t insisted he should not be admitted. It would be the parents’ choice.

Resolve your lying and expecting others including the child to lie with your conscience.

I’d someone asks you if the child is a boy and you say “sorry, that’s confidential” it avoids lying certainly, but it gives the answer anyway.

CAHMS
That implies that the child has mental health problems. Is that what you’re saying?

Mollygo

CAHMS
That implies that the child has mental health problems. Is that what you’re saying?

I don't know the child. I would never assume anything. However it is likely that any trans person will encounter significant problems in their life which will impact on their mental health. In any case a trans child will need help from a gender clinic, so finding the right help is essential and the earlier that process is started the better, surely?

I find it very odd that people who think transgender children are somehow influenced or caused by their parents would quite happily leave the responsibility for caring for, and educating that child to those parents, simply because they are unable to reconcile confidentiality issues. I can't think of any other issue when a belief that harm was being caused to a child would result in the child being firmly handed over to the people causing the harm. I don't believe harm is being caused, but I do believe the child needs supportive and helpful care and education.

So if the child isn't really trans but the parents have been somehow manipulating them you are quite happy for that child to stay home with those parents rather than tackle the difficult issue of getting him into school.
What? If the child isn't really trans? This is a new dimension, which seems designed to divert the conversation.
Isn't that just washing your hands of the matter?
No. I don't see myself as involved in the matter - I am commenting on the fact that the other children are being deceived, which I don't think is a good thing. I was answering your question about 'what if' the parents decided not to send the child to that school. We could go on forever wondering 'what if' a, b or c, but it wouldn't get close to the point, which is that the HT was not bound by rules of confidentiality to accede to their request that their child attend the school pretending to be a girl. Alternative courses of action were available, just as they are to anyone who doesn't want their child to be treated the same as others. Being trans does not trump everything.

Isn't school exactly where such children should be so that they can receive help and support from professionals, whether they are trans or not.
Not if those professionals are avoiding following the advice. Teachers are not psychologists, and schools are not psychiatric units. Is it fair to teachers to expect them to double as such, as well as social workers and whatever else?

Doodledog

*So if the child isn't really trans but the parents have been somehow manipulating them you are quite happy for that child to stay home with those parents rather than tackle the difficult issue of getting him into school.*
What? If the child isn't really trans? This is a new dimension, which seems designed to divert the conversation.
Isn't that just washing your hands of the matter?
No. I don't see myself as involved in the matter - I am commenting on the fact that the other children are being deceived, which I don't think is a good thing. I was answering your question about 'what if' the parents decided not to send the child to that school. We could go on forever wondering 'what if' a, b or c, but it wouldn't get close to the point, which is that the HT was not bound by rules of confidentiality to accede to their request that their child attend the school pretending to be a girl. Alternative courses of action were available, just as they are to anyone who doesn't want their child to be treated the same as others. Being trans does not trump everything.

Isn't school exactly where such children should be so that they can receive help and support from professionals, whether they are trans or not.
Not if those professionals are avoiding following the advice. Teachers are not psychologists, and schools are not psychiatric units. Is it fair to teachers to expect them to double as such, as well as social workers and whatever else?

Nobody is acting as a psychologist any more than I was when I taught an elective mute, or a dyslexic child or any other child with the multiple problems children present.
It probably isn't fair on teachers, but unless all those children are to be shunted off to a special unit somewhere, they have to cope.