Boy, 4y, allowed to join CoE school as a girl.

I think we probably all have much to learn about transgender.

Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay”?

My two daughters are both gay, one knew at a very young age, despite me advising her to wait until her later teens to “announce” it. My friends gay son was outwardly gay from primary school, none of us can tell other people, children or not, how THEY feel about themselves.

I agree this whole debacle is confusing for some and difficult to take on board, but none of us know this child or their family, I don’t think any of us have the right to judge.

Lots of primary schools now have policies in place regarding many elements /aspects of gender. Of course all children should be safeguarded, it’s a shame there’s not more public outcry about the number of children actually physically and sexually and emotionally abused in their homes!

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny I am amazed that you are normalising a 7 yr old boy waving his penis around and then threatening little girls not to tell all whilst he is being allowed to pretend to be a girl.

But normalising is a useful technique when you’re supporting people lying to children and making others lie to children.

Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay”?

It would be strange if a four year old child had sexual feelings towards another person so wouldn't identify as gay until the early stages of puberty.
Sexual preferences and gender are not the same thing.

There is too much emphasis on gender-specific toys now as well, far more than when my DC were young.

Who said anyone was appalled at this child stating he would prefer to be a girl? No-one at all.
What is appalling is the way this has all been handled by his parent(s) and the school.

Glorianny

Doodledog

Ok, but in a conversation about a boy wanting to be a girl and whether that should be kept confidential, it is his gender that is at issue, isn't it?

I am guessing that you are just ignoring my suggestion (made twice now) as to how it could have been handled. Confidentiality could have been respected, but the parents' request to have their male child registered and presented to other children as a girl be politely refused.

Fine explain how the circumstances can be revealed by just referring to the gender (which was a girl) and not mentioning his sex. I'm quite willing to admit you are right if there is a way(but there isn't)

There is a way, but you won't like it. The HT could simply have said no.

There was no need to reveal anything. Just say that as a male child he would be registered as a boy and let that be that. No affirmation, no deceit, just a straightforward case of declining to go along with the wishes of a four year old.

There was also no need to refuse him a place - just not to give him a place as a girl, which he is not, however much he may want to be. If that would not satisfy the parents' wishes, they would be at liberty to enrol him elsewhere, or not, depending on what they saw fit.

OMG if there is one word I hate it is "normal".
This child has been in school being educated for 3 years without a problem.
So far the only solution to the child attending the school I have seen is that staff should have refused to recognise the gender they presented as. Which is difficult to reconcile with the staff holding the sex of the child as confidential information. And could have opened the school and staff up to legal action.

I wish the parents could have been open about their child.
I wish people would just be accepting and reasonable about trans people.
I wish that children who are not "normal" but different in some way could be welcomed into schools.
But it is obvious from the remarks made about this 7 year old why these parents wanted to protect their child.

Cossy, an increasing number of children at upper primary are saying they are gay.
How did your friend’s gay son demonstrate that he was gay. I’ve heard KS1 boys and girls say they only like to play with children of the same sex as them,
Does that automatically make them gay?
NB. Being homosexual or lesbian doesn’t involve lying the way that claiming to be the opposite sex does.
I’ve taught children who prefer to dress up in stereotypical costumes and children whose nickname does not match their sex.
and others who prefer to play with children of the opposite sex. It didn’t make them trans.
What worries me is the lying and words like Glorian y’s “told to keep it a secret”.
Also the accusations of phobia which would follow if a parent asked a girl for a sleepover, but was not happy to discover that the child sharing her daughter’s room, or even bed, was a boy.

For me the crux of the matter is. . .
Should we accept the normalising of lying by and to young children?
Where should the lying start to be come unacceptable.
Or taking it to its natural conclusion, should we accept lying by anyone about anything, and being compelled to perpetrate the lie?

Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay”

To echo Callistemon I've not seen anyone appalled at this child's declaration. If a 4 year old declared they were gay that would probably raise red flags to me, as would a child that young declaring they were heterosexual or bisexual. Declaring any sexual attraction at that age would raise a red flag. Isn't such a young child displaying or talking about sexual activities a possible indication of abuse?

Rosie51

^Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay”^

To echo Callistemon I've not seen anyone appalled at this child's declaration. If a 4 year old declared they were gay that would probably raise red flags to me, as would a child that young declaring they were heterosexual or bisexual. Declaring any sexual attraction at that age would raise a red flag. Isn't such a young child displaying or talking about sexual activities a possible indication of abuse?

Yes -if only because of how such a young child is becoming aware of those terms.

Cossy

I think we probably all have much to learn about transgender.

Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay”?

My two daughters are both gay, one knew at a very young age, despite me advising her to wait until her later teens to “announce” it. My friends gay son was outwardly gay from primary school, none of us can tell other people, children or not, how THEY feel about themselves.

I agree this whole debacle is confusing for some and difficult to take on board, but none of us know this child or their family, I don’t think any of us have the right to judge.

Lots of primary schools now have policies in place regarding many elements /aspects of gender. Of course all children should be safeguarded, it’s a shame there’s not more public outcry about the number of children actually physically and sexually and emotionally abused in their homes!

I’m not sure who is being addressed here, but no, I wouldn’t be appalled if a child said they were gay. I’m not ‘appalled’ at children saying they are trans either - I am concerned at the explosion in numbers, unsure as to how a child can ‘know’ they are the wrong sex, and troubled by the fact that children are using Stonewall terminology about ‘wrong bodies’, ‘gender’ and so on.

I think that the link between sexuality and gender is that Stonewall jumped on its own bandwagon and hitched the ‘trans’ cause to the LGB one, which they handled very well.

I am not judging either. I don’t feel that the HT handled this well, but that’s not the same thing.

Of course there should be an outcry about child abuse. I’m not sure what that has to do with this though - it feels like whataboutery in the context of this discussion.

Rosie51

^Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay”^

To echo Callistemon I've not seen anyone appalled at this child's declaration. If a 4 year old declared they were gay that would probably raise red flags to me, as would a child that young declaring they were heterosexual or bisexual. Declaring any sexual attraction at that age would raise a red flag. Isn't such a young child displaying or talking about sexual activities a possible indication of abuse?

If there was any indication of abuse do you not trust the school to investigate and discover what was happening? and isn't that abuse far more likely to come to light if the child is in school where teams can be alerted. Or would it be better to simply tell the parents that their child cannot be accommodated and leave the child completely out of education as some seem to think.

Rosie51

^Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay”^

To echo Callistemon I've not seen anyone appalled at this child's declaration. If a 4 year old declared they were gay that would probably raise red flags to me, as would a child that young declaring they were heterosexual or bisexual. Declaring any sexual attraction at that age would raise a red flag. Isn't such a young child displaying or talking about sexual activities a possible indication of abuse?

Yes, alarm bells would ring.

Speaking as ‘Some’, that is not what I said! I simply pointed out that asking isn’t getting, wanting isn’t needing and I repeat - the obligation to keep a request confidential does not equate to an obligation to accede to that request.

The child would not be refused an education unless his parents were unable to be told ‘no’. If I had asked that my daughter be treated as a princess, would that have been accommodated? And would it have been beneficial to her if it had?

Glorianny

Rosie51

Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay”

To echo Callistemon I've not seen anyone appalled at this child's declaration. If a 4 year old declared they were gay that would probably raise red flags to me, as would a child that young declaring they were heterosexual or bisexual. Declaring any sexual attraction at that age would raise a red flag. Isn't such a young child displaying or talking about sexual activities a possible indication of abuse?

If there was any indication of abuse do you not trust the school to investigate and discover what was happening? and isn't that abuse far more likely to come to light if the child is in school where teams can be alerted. Or would it be better to simply tell the parents that their child cannot be accommodated and leave the child completely out of education as some seem to think.

What on earth are you talking about?

It has nothing to do with the discussion and the questions are irrelevant

Doodledog

Speaking as ‘Some’, that is not what I said! I simply pointed out that asking isn’t getting, wanting isn’t needing and I repeat - the obligation to keep a request confidential does not equate to an obligation to accede to that request.

The child would not be refused an education unless his parents were unable to be told ‘no’. If I had asked that my daughter be treated as a princess, would that have been accommodated? And would it have been beneficial to her if it had?

So if you say "No" what would you expect the parents to do? The child would be out of education. Apparently that's OK.
Or would you expect them to upset their child simply to satisfy your inability to deal with trans issues?
If your child wanted to be called Princess I see no reason not to call her that. I would of course explain that in school all children are equal, even royal ones.

Oh for goodness sake.

It is not my responsibility to tell the parents what to do, and nor am I responsible for any actions they take regarding their child’s education. They need to do precisely nothing to satisfy me, and the idea that you claim to think I would expect that just shows how desperate you are to score points.

Why would you feel the need to explain that all children are equal, when clearly a Princess is not? Would the same logic or compel you to explain that a girl with a penis is actually a boy, except when his parents have taken the head into their confidence and therefore that doesn’t apply? And if a man gets his penis out in front of a seven year old, does the fact that he has told the Head that he is a good man mean that it is ok? How do you explain to the parents that their daughters are confused?

Glorianny

Rosie51

Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay”

To echo Callistemon I've not seen anyone appalled at this child's declaration. If a 4 year old declared they were gay that would probably raise red flags to me, as would a child that young declaring they were heterosexual or bisexual. Declaring any sexual attraction at that age would raise a red flag. Isn't such a young child displaying or talking about sexual activities a possible indication of abuse?

If there was any indication of abuse do you not trust the school to investigate and discover what was happening? and isn't that abuse far more likely to come to light if the child is in school where teams can be alerted. Or would it be better to simply tell the parents that their child cannot be accommodated and leave the child completely out of education as some seem to think.

Your reply to me doesn't seem to have anything to do with my post. It is not about this child but a reply to Cossy's post asking Would you be so appalled if a 4/5 year old child stated they were “gay” As far as I know the child in the OP has not expressed any sexual attraction either to the same sex or the opposite sex. My reply is to a theoretical 4 year old declaring a sexuality. Any overt sexual behaviour or speech in a 4 year old should raise a red flag and some investigation. I'd hope any school would apprise the correct authorities of their concern. They would not exclude the child.

It's the usual diversionary tactics. Latch onto any comment to veer into a discussion of social equality, homosexuality (it'll be race and suffragettes before we know it) and twist what has been said to suggest that Some People would be happy to deny a four year old an education.

I just made up a new word:
Suffrageaphobia 😁

It's the fear (actually expressed in the 19th Century) that women might change gender if given the vote.

Today 21:02 Doodledog

It's the usual diversionary tactics. Latch onto any comment to veer into a discussion of social equality, homosexuality (it'll be race and suffragettes before we know it) and twist what has been said to suggest that Some People would be happy to deny a four year old an education.

I’m waiting. . .

Today 21:12 Callistemon21

I just made up a new word:
Suffrageaphobia 😁

It's the fear (actually expressed in the 19th Century) that women might change gender if given the vote.



Today 21:16 Doodledog

Mollygo

Cossy, an increasing number of children at upper primary are saying they are gay.
How did your friend’s gay son demonstrate that he was gay. I’ve heard KS1 boys and girls say they only like to play with children of the same sex as them,
Does that automatically make them gay?
NB. Being homosexual or lesbian doesn’t involve lying the way that claiming to be the opposite sex does.
I’ve taught children who prefer to dress up in stereotypical costumes and children whose nickname does not match their sex.
and others who prefer to play with children of the opposite sex. It didn’t make them trans.
What worries me is the lying and words like Glorian y’s “told to keep it a secret”.
Also the accusations of phobia which would follow if a parent asked a girl for a sleepover, but was not happy to discover that the child sharing her daughter’s room, or even bed, was a boy.

For me the crux of the matter is. . .
Should we accept the normalising of lying by and to young children?
Where should the lying start to be come unacceptable.
Or taking it to its natural conclusion, should we accept lying by anyone about anything, and being compelled to perpetrate the lie?

Yes, this.

Callistemon21

I just made up a new word:
Suffrageaphobia 😁

It's the fear (actually expressed in the 19th Century) that women might change gender if given the vote.

Actually no one feared they would change gender. Nor was it anything to do with the vote. It was feared that if women were educated their reproductive organs would wither and they would be unable to have children
.
Interestingly if you go by birth numbers educated women have fewer children, but of course more of them survive.

In the 21st century it is very sad that some still view anything to do with sex or gender as harmful and have fixed views about it, instead of looking at individuals and their situation.

Why do you see yourself as the only person on here who has non-fixed views, Glorianny? You may be surprised to find that others have a very different perspective on that.

Where do you get the fixed idea that 'some' believe that anything to do with sex or gender is harmful? That is a ludicrous idea. What people are saying is that prioritising the wishes of one child (or, more likely, those of his parents) over the wellbeing of the rest of the class is indefensible. Much as prioritising the wishes of a small minority of people who want access to everything women have worked for, and disregarding the women who have (collectively) achieved them is indefensible. That is not about sex or, for that matter, gender. It is about fairness and feminism.

It is you who conflates sex and gender, and your assumption that those arguing for the rights of women and girls are uninformed, prudish, uncaring and narrow minded is deeply ironic. Instead of looking for a 'gotcha' in every post so that you can make snide digs, why not listen to what 'some people' are saying? Agree or disagree - either is fine - but when you only consider what people are saying through such a deeply prejudiced filter these conversations will never get anywhere.

In the 21st century it is very sad that some still view anything to do with sex or gender as harmful and have fixed views about it, instead of looking at individuals and their situation.

I’m not sure who Glorianny is referring to in regarding sex as harmful.
Gender, the way it is used to imply sex incorrectly has indeed been shown to be harmful. That people continue to do that is really sad.

And yes, Glorianny. I’ve noticed your fixed views.

Equally sad in the 21st Century is some people’s belief that lying is acceptable and those that further their efforts to justify that belief or compel others to lie.

Actually no one feared they would change gender. Nor was it anything to do with the vote. It was feared that if women were educated their reproductive organs would wither and they would be unable to have children
Not quite true. I agree that it is unlikely that suffrage was discussed in terms of 'gender' as that is a recent invention, but it most certainly was believed that getting the vote would make women more masculine, which ties in with the stereotypical way of discussing 'gender' in the 21st century.