Boy, 4y, allowed to join CoE school as a girl.

Doodledog

*At the heart of it is a child for whom the parents and the school tried to do their best. Even if it was wrong, even if the child was being influenced in some way, they remain an innocent child. The reason for the secrecy is blatantly obvious.*

It's not blatantly obvious to me.

I'm not disagreeing that at the heart of this is an innocent child - or he was at the age of four. An older child waving his penis about is another matter - particularly if he supposedly 'identifies' as a girl off his own bat. That sounds like disturbed behaviour however you cut it, so the approach taken by the school hasn't been particularly successful.

It may well be that the parents and the school have acted in what they think are his best interests, but it shouldn't be the case that the best interests of one child are prioritised over those of the rest of the class. Even if this were the best way to deal with this boy (which I dispute), what about the point I made earlier about children needing to learn to trust their instincts and the evidence of their eyes, and being betrayed by the adults who lied about the sex of their classmate?

Try replacing the change of gender with some other condition say autism would you demand that the parents and school reveal the condition to all the other members of the school?
If not why should this be revealed.
The school has a duty of confidentiality for all children.
I don't think it is a question of prioritising best interests but of seeking a balance which ensures all are treated fairly.
As for the evidence of their eyes. How many children actually see evidence of the sex of anyone in a school setting?

VioletSky

I feel so bad for them, everything is generally equal in primary, really shouldn't matter how they identify as long as they have access to the learning. I hope they achieve a happy outcome but the chances don't look good when they are just 4 and grown adults are already bullying them

I don't agree, this child is four, he needs to be parented, he needs to be told he is a boy and sent to school dressed appropriately.
No adult is bullying him, the parents and the School kept it a secret,the boy when aged 7 was getting his male parts out, and the girls were upset because he was behaving in a inappropriate manner.
I despair as I think the girls and their parents were deceived. His behaviour to them now is upsetting.

I feel so bad for them, everything is generally equal in primary, really shouldn't matter how they identify as long as they have access to the learning
The problem arises, surely, if a child identifies as an animal which is just not possible.

Should adults go along with this to avoid being accused of bullying?
I'm not talking about a hypothetical situation here, btw.

This boy, at 7, seems to want to prove he is, in fact, male, if he is in fact waving his sex organ around in front of girls in order to intimidate them.

How do the adults around him deal with this development?

At the heart of it is a child for whom the parents and the school tried to do their best. Even if it was wrong, even if the child was being influenced in some way, they remain an innocent child. The reason for the secrecy is blatantly obvious.

Blatantly obvious? You mean to protect liars?
Which other lies would you endorse being told to children by those they should trust?

The parents were lying and the school joined in that lie.
The child is innocent -indeed. The children in the school are also innocent. But that innocence is being destroyed by the people who should be trusted to tell the truth.
That you cannot change sex.


It

Agree Mollygo

*Try replacing the change of gender with some other condition say autism would you demand that the parents and school reveal the condition to all the other members of the school?
If not why should this be revealed.*

Because sex is not a condition. It is part of who we are. I wouldn't 'demand' that autism be revealed - I don't think I have ever demanded anything, really - but where I have come across children with various 'conditions' it has been very much in their interests for them to be revealed, and parents have fought tooth and nail to get them recognised. If the child has a mental health issue then of course he should get help. I am aware of the parlous state of MH provision, but that doesn't mean that a school should go against the NHS recommendations and decide to deceive other children and their parents. I'm surprised that the governors went along with this - were they deceived, too.

*The school has a duty of confidentiality for all children.
I don't think it is a question of prioritising best interests but of seeking a balance which ensures all are treated fairly.*
This was not balanced though. The 'demands' of one family were put against the interests of the other children. Schools don't have a duty of confidentiality across the board. Teachers will call in social services, the police and other bodies where necessary. I wouldn't expect a teacher to expose the details of a request for a child to be 'treated as' a different sex, but that doesn't mean that they have to accede to that request, or that they have to deceive other people.

As for the evidence of their eyes. How many children actually see evidence of the sex of anyone in a school setting?
When the child starts to wave a penis about?

Willy-waving notwithstanding, I could just as easily ask how often a child is 'treated as' a girl or a boy in a primary school. Uniform aside (which can easily be adapted) in what way are boys and girls treated differently at school these days other than to use separate toilet facilities? As I said in a previous post, why not explain to the child that he may want to be a girl, but whilst he is not one, it really doesn't matter, as he will do the same things that girls do, and try to find out what specifically is troubling him.

Sorry - formatting fail.

Having an Autistic GC, I can say that it was known by all teachers and their classmates from day one in reception.

It helped our GC, their classmates along with everyone else to understand them.

Many intersex people have asked not to be used as gotchas in the trans debate.

I fail to see why the whims of one child or his parents should trump the rights of all the other pupils not to be lied to by adults they should be able to trust.

How on earth is that school going to deal with any other matters of dishonesty when the pupils know that all the staff colluded in a massive lie. So much for Christian values.

Doodledog Even if this were the best way to deal with this boy (which I dispute), what about the point I made earlier about children needing to learn to trust their instincts and the evidence of their eyes, and being betrayed by the adults who lied about the sex of their classmate

This to me is a pivotal point. Why should I as a parent or my child ever believe anything these teachers say again? I certainly would question every word they said. They were liars for 3 years, the lies only now being exposed by the child in question deciding to 'willy wave'. Of course this child needs help, but whether that help is the ongoing system or something else is absolutely up for debate.

Did the child just know or was he told to keep his 'willy' secret or hidden from his classmates? I'm trying to sort through this issue so perhaps I'm not seeing all sides of this dilemma. At 4, my son could not keep a secret; told relatives what was selected for their gift under our Christmas tree. Sad for this child that he had to be so involved in a 'secret'.

Grammaretto

Caleo If I am confusing sex and gender which I may very well be how and where does intersex fit in?
I've read a book, a novel, on the subject so know that, although rare, it still happens and babies born with both sexual organs have their penis removed.

Intersex is complicated but the current advice/practice is not to surgically intervene until the child can make their own choice, there have been traumatic errors as it is very difficult to determine the 'correct' sex (or could it be there are 3 correct sexes not two so is intervention always necessary at all - a different debate). It would explain though, if this child is intersex, why they have not had surgery. Sometimes intersex is not physically obvious immediately but becomes so at puberty.
I suspect intersex may be the cause in this child's case but as trans such a contentious subject currently rampaging in the media people are assuming that it's a trans issue - which is completely different to intersex.
Intersex isn't that rare, l think the incidence is about the same as the number of redheads.
Certainly to me this instance screams intersex.

Sorry but the information you are providing about dsds is not really accurate. The majority of people with a dsd are able to be identified as Male or female eg they are not a magic third sex. The figure of comparing the numbers to redheads has also been strongly criticised as it included conditions which do not meet the category of 'intersex'. The actual figure where sex might be considered to be difficult to classify for want of a better term is thought go be 0.018 %.
Now anything is possible but I think we can only go with the current information.

The boy was unlikely to be intersex, more likely to have parents who wanted to push their trans ideologies onto their child.

Four year olds (of whom I have vast professional experience) frequently try out different identities as part of the way they make sense of the world around them. Adults need to allow this while never letting the child or those around them believe they can change.

Shame on all those adults who lied to every other pupil in the school. What a terrible betrayal and abuse of trust.

Can the parents withstand the possible nightmare scenario when this boy reaches the emotional Spaghetti Junction of puberty? The hormonal confusion of trying to decide if he is a boy, a girl, a hermaphrodite? Trying to negotiate the minefield of traditions and rules that apply to the divide between girls and boys.
And what of the parents of his female classmates who will be wary of a "hybrid" child trying to share their daughters supposedly safe spaces?
What a mess.

What were the staff of the school thinking of in colluding with this deception? The Union reps should have contacted their unions immediately, because those on temporary contracts would fear for their jobs.
The Head and Board of Governors need to be replaced forthwith, as is possible when a miscarriage of this magnitude is carried out. I have no doubt that as a church school the local vicar will be Chair of the Governing body; further problems.

GrannyGravy13

Having an Autistic GC, I can say that it was known by all teachers and their classmates from day one in reception.

It helped our GC, their classmates along with everyone else to understand them.

That was the parents and the child's choice. Some parents would not be happy with that. Would you insist they must share their child's condition with everyone, or should they be able to request teachers to only share the knowledge with relevant professionals?

Glorianny I thought you were once a teacher, any child on the spectrum is far better off with the condition being put in the open, it enables the staff to be aware of any first signs of melt downs, along with the pupils being able to see why their friend may react differently to certain situations.

HettyBetty

The boy was unlikely to be intersex, more likely to have parents who wanted to push their trans ideologies onto their child.

Four year olds (of whom I have vast professional experience) frequently try out different identities as part of the way they make sense of the world around them. Adults need to allow this while never letting the child or those around them believe they can change.

Shame on all those adults who lied to every other pupil in the school. What a terrible betrayal and abuse of trust.

I too have experience of 4 year olds. I have also met a 2 year old girl who has consistently (and still at 10) insisted he is a boy.
If you haven't seen it, you probably don't appreciate it.

However all staff in schools have a responsibility to keep confidential matters parents do not want shared with others. What do you suggest the staff should have done in this case? Paraded the child before the class? Pushed him (looking like a girl) into the boys toilets?

The staff have a responsibility to follow current guidance, they are not doing that. This is going to end up with legal cases against schools, which is going to be awful.

I suggest they dont socially affirm as current guidance is this is not a neutral act.

No one is suggesting pushing anyone anywhere.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny I thought you were once a teacher, any child on the spectrum is far better off with the condition being put in the open, it enables the staff to be aware of any first signs of melt downs, along with the pupils being able to see why their friend may react differently to certain situations.

No sorry. It is the parent's decision not mine. I can advise I would prefer the class to know but if the parents insist I cannot reveal it to anyone except those professionally involved with the child.
I've used autism as an example but it is the same with any personal information about a child, from what might be regarded as a disability, to personal circumstances. If the parent refuses to permit the information to be shared the teacher has a professional obligation to comply with their request.

Galaxy

The staff have a responsibility to follow current guidance, they are not doing that. This is going to end up with legal cases against schools, which is going to be awful.

Actually the guidance was not in place when this child started school. So can we drop that one. It's only recently been proposed.

The cass report was last year and people have been flagging concerns about social affirmation for years. People working with children should have exercised some caution, as I have said I dont actually blame those in education because it's been such a mess. But we are also now talking about it in a general sense and if people are advising this for current education they are advising people to go against current guidance. These people will of course be no where to be seen when things go wrong.