Azar Ali

Ok so now we have international governments blamed for the growth in conspiracy theories

Iam64

Ok so now we have international governments blamed for the growth in conspiracy theories

It's quite simple.You ask why Gaza has been occupied by Israel for so long and ignored by the international community in spite of UN resolutions telling it to return land and have a 2 state solution. You attribute that to the support of the USa nd (to a lesser degree) the UK. That support is undoubtedly influenced in the US by the Jewish vote, From there it's a small step to seeing a conspiracy.
Justice must not only be done it must be seen to be done.

Maddyone, ch4 news had interviews with Jewish people in north Manchester - the home of many Jewish people. They all confirmed the issues in your post

Evidence for support of hamas? Well let’s start with a number of people openly supporting them by placards, chanting and emblems sewn on clothing, and there would be far more if they didn’t think the police and authorities here would arrest them.Same for all other countries where the Palestinian protests take place.In the West Bank, 50% of people asked about hamas said they agreed with their actions.Certain imams here preaching hateful messages.I bet there was a lot of celebrating in Gaza by residents too on October 7th as such a large percentage of their sons and brothers and fathers took part in the massacre.UNWRA members took part too.
Anyone who believes that there is little support for hamas is either ignorant of the facts or wilfully blind to it.

London Mayor spoke today of extra police control brought in,
more protection needed for Synagogues and Schools, little
support for Hamas? so not true

Whitewavemark2

TBH I am of the opinion that the majority of people in the U.K. whilst strongly condemning Hamas, are also highly critical of the Israeli government.

So that is the position I find myself in. A plague on all their houses!

The death, maiming and misery both sides have committed is beyond my comprehension, and my heart breaks each time I watch or read what is happening to so many souls.

TBH I am of the opinion that the majority of people in the U.K. whilst strongly condemning Hamas, are also highly critical of the Israeli government.

I don't know about the majority - but certainly many feel that way. At what point does the retaliation start to become as bad as the massacre that prompted it? The 'collateral damage' is largely civilians - or are we supposed to believe they are all terrorists too? How many civilians are killed in order to eliminate one terrorist? Even war has its rules. Netanyahu appears like one possessed. I think it's possible to become maddened by an all-consuming obsession - a trait which I don't believe is peculiar to any particular religion or race or culture.

Glorianny

If anyone thinks antisemites are using Gaza as an excuse the answer is simple, remove the excuse. Create a free Palestinian state. Then the excuse is gone.
I don't think the people who want a free Palestine are antisemitic, many Jews support that idea.
As for Yemen, many of us have been petitioning and lobbying the government about that for years.

So you think the creation of a free Palestinian State would end anti-Semiticism?

Anti-Semitics are motivated by all kinds of hostilities - political, social, racial and economic hostility.

I don't believe a free Palestinian State would end anti-Semiticism.

It's historic, ancient. Which is why perhaps Jewish people feel so threatened - because it's part of their history.

Dickens

Whitewavemark2

TBH I am of the opinion that the majority of people in the U.K. whilst strongly condemning Hamas, are also highly critical of the Israeli government.

So that is the position I find myself in. A plague on all their houses!

The death, maiming and misery both sides have committed is beyond my comprehension, and my heart breaks each time I watch or read what is happening to so many souls.

TBH I am of the opinion that the majority of people in the U.K. whilst strongly condemning Hamas, are also highly critical of the Israeli government.

I don't know about the majority - but certainly many feel that way. At what point does the retaliation start to become as bad as the massacre that prompted it? The 'collateral damage' is largely civilians - or are we supposed to believe they are all terrorists too? How many civilians are killed in order to eliminate one terrorist? Even war has its rules. Netanyahu appears like one possessed. I think it's possible to become maddened by an all-consuming obsession - a trait which I don't believe is peculiar to any particular religion or race or culture.

Netanyahu is not mad - he is fighting for his political career and freedom.

If found guilty of the charges of corruption, fraud - you know the usual right wing traits - he faces 10 years or more in prison.

Netanyahu is facing exactly the same prospect as Trump: Leader of his country or gaol.
Corruption and fraud are not exclusive right-wing traits.

Indeed eazybee. And even worse characteristics are also not confined to the right or to the left. History tells us that clearly.

eazybee

Netanyahu is facing exactly the same prospect as Trump: Leader of his country or gaol.
Corruption and fraud are not exclusive right-wing traits.

That's food for thought.

Netanyahu attempted to "overhaul" the Supreme Court - to limit its powers. Unsuccessfully.

Trump, whilst President, 'influenced' the federal judiciary... his three appointees turned the Supreme Court to the Right establishing its Conservatism for a generation. Though those appointees themselves appear to differ widely.

So the fate of both nations hinges on - what?

Corruption and fraud are not exclusive right-wing traits.

Quite. A little research will indicate clearly that they are not.

The UN partitioned Palestine in 1948 but the Arabs never accepted the UN's right to do that. Incidentally, the Arabs living in Ottoman Palestine and later under the British mandate never described themselves as Palestinians: that is a later self- description. Immediately after the partition decision the Arab Palestinians attacked Jewish settlements. After the state of Israel was declared it was attacked by several Arab nations. The result was that Israel acquired about 77% of the Arabs' land. The histories of the time are almost entirely partisan but it is quite clear that both sides conducted serious massacres of civilians in 1948.

From a purely historical perspective, “Israel” predates “Palestine” by more than a millennium as confirmed in the archives of ancient Egypt. But after the Jewish people were dispersed by the Romans, “Palestine” became home to an Arab population, again for more than a millennium.

Frankly, harking back to ancient or recent history is never going to be acceptable to either side and neither is the adding up of massacres (including 7 Oct) to prove one side more culpable than the other. The search for 'justice' against Hamas or any other entity is illusory. HAMAS can certainly be reduced militarily by destroying fighters, commanders and materiel but its murderous ideology won't be destroyed.

The only solution will be a political one but I fear it will take a very long time to achieve especially when both sides put out masses of disinformation and manipulate supporters in the UK and elsewhere. Ultimately an agreement will have to criminalise extremist militias on both sides as happened in Northern Ireland because there will be persistence of the old ways for decades.

Grantanow thanks for the summary which for what it’s worth is imo an accurate one
I share your view on the need for political solution and the difficulties surrounding that

I also thank you Grantanow for your summary which helps put the history into context. Also thank you Iam64 for confirming what I said earlier in the thread.
Frankly I can’t see an early or easy end to this situation. It will continue and the innocents on both sides will continue to suffer.

Excellent post Grantanow. Especially the point about a political solution.

Thank you for taking the time to write it.

eazybee

Netanyahu is facing exactly the same prospect as Trump: Leader of his country or gaol.
Corruption and fraud are not exclusive right-wing traits.

Yes, interesting.

So you think the creation of a free Palestinian State would end anti-Semiticism?

It has to be achieved but no, it will not end anti-Semitism.

Grantanow Fri 16-Feb-24 14:37:56

Thank you.

I did buy a book on the history of the area up to recent times, also have books on the bible as history and geography but haven't read them yet.

"1948 Arab-Israeli War: A History from Beginning to End (Palestine Israeli Conflict)"

Grantanow 👍🏻

Grantanow

The UN partitioned Palestine in 1948 but the Arabs never accepted the UN's right to do that. Incidentally, the Arabs living in Ottoman Palestine and later under the British mandate never described themselves as Palestinians: that is a later self- description. Immediately after the partition decision the Arab Palestinians attacked Jewish settlements. After the state of Israel was declared it was attacked by several Arab nations. The result was that Israel acquired about 77% of the Arabs' land. The histories of the time are almost entirely partisan but it is quite clear that both sides conducted serious massacres of civilians in 1948.

From a purely historical perspective, “Israel” predates “Palestine” by more than a millennium as confirmed in the archives of ancient Egypt. But after the Jewish people were dispersed by the Romans, “Palestine” became home to an Arab population, again for more than a millennium.

Frankly, harking back to ancient or recent history is never going to be acceptable to either side and neither is the adding up of massacres (including 7 Oct) to prove one side more culpable than the other. The search for 'justice' against Hamas or any other entity is illusory. HAMAS can certainly be reduced militarily by destroying fighters, commanders and materiel but its murderous ideology won't be destroyed.

The only solution will be a political one but I fear it will take a very long time to achieve especially when both sides put out masses of disinformation and manipulate supporters in the UK and elsewhere. Ultimately an agreement will have to criminalise extremist militias on both sides as happened in Northern Ireland because there will be persistence of the old ways for decades.

There were massacres on both sides but only Palestinians were driven from their lands. At the end of the conflict the UN ruled that Israel should return to its 1948 borders and return the land it had taken. One of the rules of conflict being that land gained in wars should not be occupied when peace is achieved.
Israel has never abided by any UN resolution.
The nakba, which is the name for the massacre and expulsion of Palestinians, regarded by many historians as ethnic cleansing is not acknowledged by Israel and is not taught in Israeli schools.
The problem of Palestinian refugees still exists. Although Israel has tried to stop the term being used for the people living in Gaza

Thank you Grantanow

Thank you Grantanow

Different versions seem to be circulating.

On the day after the declaration of the creation of Israel, four armies from these neighboring states launched an invasion. The invading armies had tanks, combat aircraft, and heavy artillery. The Israel Defense Force lacked all these things; its forces were outnumbered and had barely enough rifles to equip its troops. No wonder that some Arab generals told their leaders that this wouldn’t be a war but a “parade without any risks.” Most people predicted that Israel would be defeated within two weeks.

But that wasn’t how it turned out. Israel not only survived its first war—it emerged stronger and with armed forces that proved themselves to be among the most capable in the world. This is the surprising story of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

Where did that quote come from Callistemon? It's not consistent with records which show that from 1946, Ben-Gurion was buying weapons from all over the place, including at least three B17s.

growstuff

Where did that quote come from Callistemon? It's not consistent with records which show that from 1946, Ben-Gurion was buying weapons from all over the place, including at least three B17s.

"1948 Arab-Israeli War: A History from Beginning to End (Palestine Israeli Conflict)"