Too many British families are hungry!

Crystal.

I was commenting more on the comment about potty training.

I still don't understand why living on benefits, being under-privileged and not having a good education means that parents would not potty train a toddler.

Though I can see that it could be read more than one way.

However, it did seem to fit with the theme which has run through the whole of this thread, that the poor are poor because they don't know how to manage their lives properly.

There seems to be a reluctance to acknowledge that much poverty is a result of not having enough money, not a failure to learn life skills...

Potty training does not require a PdD in biology.

Just patience. And a floor cloth.

PhD

AGAA4

There has always been inequality. It's just that the divide is getting wider.

Anyone who is a fan of Anthony Trollope’s novels will have read of people in mid-Victorian times who had incomes of £20k or even £40k a year. And young men losing £600 during a night’s card-playing was nothing very unusual.

One of his characters used her entire dowry of £40k to pay her brother’s debts.

OTOH there was £12 a year for a new children’s ‘nurse’, aka resident childminder, plus she was expected to ‘find her own tea’.
Trollope did add that this was ‘abject slavery’.

Callistemon21

Potty training does not require a PdD in biology.

Just patience. And a floor cloth.

Of course it doesn't.

But why are people assuming that it is the children of 'the poor' who aren't being potty trained?

Who is assuming that?

Witzend

AGAA4

There has always been inequality. It's just that the divide is getting wider.

Anyone who is a fan of Anthony Trollope’s novels will have read of people in mid-Victorian times who had incomes of £20k or even £40k a year. And young men losing £600 during a night’s card-playing was nothing very unusual.

One of his characters used her entire dowry of £40k to pay her brother’s debts.

OTOH there was £12 a year for a new children’s ‘nurse’, aka resident childminder, plus she was expected to ‘find her own tea’.
Trollope did add that this was ‘abject slavery’.

OTOH there was £12 a year for a new children’s ‘nurse’, aka resident childminder, plus she was expected to ‘find her own tea’.
Trollope did add that this was ‘abject slavery’.

My DM was a Nanny (not in mid-Victorian times but early 20th century). Times had changed, Nannies were more privileged by then, but had to wear a uniform and ate with the children.

There has always been inequality. It's just that the divide is getting wider.
Yes, we've all read Dickens and Trollope and the poverty and despair then.
However, I think there was terrible poverty in the last century too.
The Depression. Starvation and soup kitchens.
Jarrow Marches.

Then Rachmanism.

Reading the thread about when we first realised some people lived differently from us is interesting. The 1950s feature a lot.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
I'm not saying it is right at all but it is not a new phenomenon.

I’m not sure why we have gone from food insecurity to toilet training bur as for the latter …

This is the media not reporting the findings correctly (or reporting them in such a way to sensationalise).

These findings are based on a 15-minute online survey of primary school staff (teachers and support staff) which took place from the 27th October to 27th November 2023. So just after the first half term for a new intake of reception age children.

1,027 surveys were completed. Of those 1027, 90% say at least one child in their class is not toilet trained.

The survey defines this as “toileting 'mishaps' [which] occur frequently rather than occasionally”. It doesn’t say whether the mishaps are pee or poop. It could be no more than one shy, anxious child.

Of all the skills and behaviours assessed, toilet training registered ranked lowest of all the concerns related to school readiness.

Again, the survey results were based on staff saying they had at least one child in the class who did not have various skills or behaved in a certain way e.g. they struggled to sit still, struggled to hold a pencil, were upset when away from parents.

In focus group discussions, teachers say this is not a new problem but 50% said the problem was worse in September 2023 than September 2022. That could just mean that two children in a new reception class are a little behind not one.

The decline is attributed at least partly to patchy regional access to health visitors.

I think we have to be very careful about interpreting a very small sample of data as a major signifier of poor parenting.

Germanshepherdsmum

Who is assuming that?

Only MaizieD

The older generation may have pride and keep quiet about their current situation. The younger generation are more open and willing to mention issues. Both approaches are fine , but the country is in a real state. The older ones have a blue print and are pro active . In a cafe i go into there is a board with free drinks. I’ve never seen an older person use it . The younger ones see no stigma.

Germanshepherdsmum

Is it the fault of the billionaires?

Yes. Billionaires make money by exploiting others. They also get away with paying less tax.

I have seen women on Tv bemoaning that they cant afford to eat ... observed their Manicured Nails, nicely furnished interiors, huge TV's ... rest my case ...

I don't know who doesn't potty train before pre-school but I sense there has been a shift in potty training culture. My own children were fully trained well before they started playschool (this was in the 1980's). My daughter delayed the training of her children but they were trained before they went to pre-school. Her reasoning was that the children would be more mature and it would speed up the process. I also believe most of her friends did the same.

Callistemon21

Germanshepherdsmum

Who is assuming that?

Only MaizieD

I must be reading a different thread from you lot, then.

Delia22

Maybe it,s irrelevant but how many of the "poor,disadvantaged" families each have I phones,possibly on contracts? Also some who purchase vapes. Sometimes it may be down to education.I don't mean general education but I believe frozen fruit and vegetables are relatively cheap.Doesn,t take much to make a healthy soup.However on the other hand I know there are many families where there are two adults working who struggle to buy essential basic nourishing food. There doesn't seem to be an easy answer and yes there has always been poverty.

Oh dear. Now people aren’t allowed to have smart phones or vape (even though it’s way, way cheaper than smoking). Phone contracts that have often been taken out before the crisis but last two years. Meanwhile Amazon pay no tax on profits of billions and the utility companies are making record profits while people sit shivering at home. But no, it’s the smart phones causing the problems.

Doodledog

I don't think that's what Calli is saying - more that if you are on a tight budget the thought that by potty training you would save a chunk of money would be an incentive.

But why assume that living on a tight budget (or in absolute poverty) means that you don't potty train your children?

Nobody is making that assumption other than you Maizie.

I have found that supermarket bills have risen substantially over the last year. rising from £25- £40 upto £35 -£50. We are still buying the same types of food. No ready meals
At school, I know children have a lot of work but if some time could be introduced to allow lessons in money management and budgeting it would help in the future .
Cookery lessons seem to have gone by the board , some rebranded as food technology. Many years ago I did some supply work for a cookery teacher and remember one girl who couldn't do any oven cooking as they didn't use the oven at home and had no baking tins. She will be in her 40's now. I wonder how she is feeding her children.

Buttonjugs

Germanshepherdsmum

Is it the fault of the billionaires?

Yes. Billionaires make money by exploiting others. They also get away with paying less tax.

They do employ accountants to evade paying taxes. A tax deductible expense

MaizieD

Doodledog

I don't think that's what Calli is saying - more that if you are on a tight budget the thought that by potty training you would save a chunk of money would be an incentive.

But why assume that living on a tight budget (or in absolute poverty) means that you don't potty train your children?

I'm not assuming anything of the sort. My idea that a reported downturn in the number of potty trained children may be due to lockdowns and young (or inexperienced) parents not having access to advice or help was not remotely class based, but was dismissed out of hand. I'm still not convinced that the things were unconnected. If poor mental health in teenagers can be traced back to lockdown, I don't see why early years experiences won't have been impacted in a similar (but different) way. The whole point of HVs and playgroups is to provide advice and allow parents to learn from one another, so if they are taken away there is going to be an impact, I'm sure.

Anyway, you often read assumptions into my posts that aren't there. I assume that you do the same with the posts of others, but as I can't be sure of exactly what they did mean I am speaking only for myself. My reading of Calli's post was not that she was suggesting that only 'the poor' don't potty train, but that anyone on a low income would be more likely to do so early, if only because of the financial repercussions of keeping four year olds in nappies. I know we don't know one another on here, but where regular posters are concerned it is often possible to take their posts in the round and not assume that they have had a personality change all of a sudden. I wouldn't expect Callistemon to suggest that impoverished parents were more likely to be neglectful, so I wasn't looking for such an inference.

Sweeping statements there.

Accountants don’t assist anyone to evade tax as that is a crime. Tax avoidance by legal means is not.

I wonder which billionaires have exploited me? Can’t think of anyone …

My GS's school enabled him to take a BTech in catering and hospitality instead of GCSE in food science. He learnt the skills needed to work as a chef which he has done ever since, supporting himself to travel and now supplementing his student loan by working part-time during his University course. It would make sense if all schools abandoned the idea of food tech/science and enabled teenagers to learn skills to be carried into adult life.

How is cancer linked to deprivation? Poor nutrition? It’s not necessary to be poor to have cancer.
Maybe it’s all the takeaways - high fat, high sugar content? Fruit and veg are cheap by comparison. But then, they require preparation - too much like hard work for some.

don't worry the money will trickle down- not. Maybe ken loach will make a film about it, oops he already has- i,daniel blake.....
Hope us humans are at the cusp of something fairer, not sure how long it will take though.