Is there anyone who still thinks that Israel's actions in Gaza are justifiable?

I think Israel is way past bothering about Gazans being recruited by hamas in the future.Already so many there already in Gaza before this time, who hate Jews that it doesn’t matter.

There was no Hamas in Gaza until 1987 when it was formed. Check it out in wiki

Palestinians lived in Gaza in peace until 1967 when some citizens in Israel started to settle there, beyond the original boundaries of the Israeli State.

I recall very clearly marching in demos alongside Jewish friends who opposed this then. I also believe there are many Palestinians who only wish for peace and dont support what is happening.

Its easy a discussion like this to get very polarised and assume whole groups all think the same.

However, if your land is taken from you and you become second class citizens and forced to live in camps as displaced persons, that is when militancy flourishes.

I do wish there were more atheists in the Middle East.

I can't think of many examples of atheists going to war with other atheists.

I think Hitler was an atheist varian, however those he waged war on were a variety of religions, but of course, he hated and despised the Jews so much that he tried to obliterate them from the world.

varian

I do wish there were more atheists in the Middle East.

I can't think of many examples of atheists going to war with other atheists.

Both World wars were nothing to do with religion just naked power grabbing.

I would imagine Hitler was catholic maddy.

We are all defined by our culture however whether we are religious or not.

Silverlining, Hitler may well have been born Catholic (I don’t know) but I do know that he had no religion, did not practice any religion, and despised not only Jews who as we all know, he tried to annihilate, but also Christians, either Catholic or Protestant, and no doubt would have felt the same about any other religion should members of it have been living in Europe. He particularly disliked Jehovah’s Witnesses, and had them incarcerated in concentration camps, alongside the Jews and others. Many priests and nuns were also put into concentration camps and around 2,800 were executed for their beliefs.

Oreo

If you think hamas are effective ‘killing machines’ foxie48 then think again.
Swaggering into Israel in the early hours of the morning to murder and rape suits them better than fighting a hard battle against the IDF.
They skulk in tunnels and pop out like rats to shoot then pop back in their tunnels again.Or hide out in hospitals.

Guerilla tactics have been used in many countries and despite being outnumbered and inferior in weaponry they have beaten their opponents. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq are all examples of when guerilla tactics have been used successfully against a conventional army. I certainly do not want Hamas to win but despite having one of the most sophisticated armies funded to the tune of 3.8billion dollars in 2023, Israel is still unable to wipe Hamas out. I have absolutely no respect or regard for Hamas but it's a mistake to underestimate them.

Israel has a long standing secret service, I doubt that they are standing down atm.

I would imagine Hamas are now having a huge upsurge in recruitment. None of these people will be able to get into Gaza to fight of course. But if Israel thinks destroying Gaza will be the end of the fight with Hamas they are so mistaken. There will be young people recruited from all over the world, the citizens of many different countries. They will lie low until such time as Hamas decides to activate them. Then Israel will find protecting its borders and the illegal settlements will become much more difficult.

I think thats speculative and dangerous. The immediate problem is humanitarian relief. And then getting round the table with international involvement to try and find any working solutions.

The problem is - I've racked my brains for many years to think of them!

I don't think it speculative really. The history of oppressed people being forced to work under an occupying power is full of examples of exiled members and their supporters returning to build resistance.
The humanitarian aid is vital.
But the concept that Hamas will be defeated and Israel will be safer once Gaza is destroyed is totally flawed.

"But the concept that Hamas will be defeated and Israel will be safer once Gaza is destroyed is totally flawed."

It is. To be fair I don't think I've read anyone in this discussion proposing this.

foxie48

Oreo

If you think hamas are effective ‘killing machines’ foxie48 then think again.
Swaggering into Israel in the early hours of the morning to murder and rape suits them better than fighting a hard battle against the IDF.
They skulk in tunnels and pop out like rats to shoot then pop back in their tunnels again.Or hide out in hospitals.

Guerilla tactics have been used in many countries and despite being outnumbered and inferior in weaponry they have beaten their opponents. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq are all examples of when guerilla tactics have been used successfully against a conventional army. I certainly do not want Hamas to win but despite having one of the most sophisticated armies funded to the tune of 3.8billion dollars in 2023, Israel is still unable to wipe Hamas out. I have absolutely no respect or regard for Hamas but it's a mistake to underestimate them.

Israel can easily wipe Hamas out in Gaza, the issue is that Hamas is using Palestinians as a shield and civilian losses are the constraint not the fighting ability of Hamas.

I see there is footage of Israelis having a peaceful protest in Jerusalem? against the war and what is happening in Gaza.

The Israeli police are behaving just like the police in Russia where there are peaceful protests against the war.

Netanyahu and Putin are from the same mould.

Gaza does not belong to Israel. It is Palestinian territory. Talk of them being easily able to wipe out Hamas - and the innocents caught up in the conflict - seems to indicate a belief that Israel should capture Gaza, they have a right to.

To be clear on my last sentence - the current Israeli government.

Gaza is part of Israel I’m sure they would be quite happy for Egypt to take it over but Egypt say they don’t want it. Gaza was autonomous and elected its own government, they chose Hamas

wiki

"The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are two Palestinian territories that were part of Mandate Palestine and were captured by Israel during the Six-Day War in 1967. There are over 5 million Palestinians combined living in the two territories."

Glorianny

I would imagine Hamas are now having a huge upsurge in recruitment. None of these people will be able to get into Gaza to fight of course. But if Israel thinks destroying Gaza will be the end of the fight with Hamas they are so mistaken. There will be young people recruited from all over the world, the citizens of many different countries. They will lie low until such time as Hamas decides to activate them. Then Israel will find protecting its borders and the illegal settlements will become much more difficult.

Sounds to me as if you like that prospect.

Katie59

Gaza is part of Israel I’m sure they would be quite happy for Egypt to take it over but Egypt say they don’t want it. Gaza was autonomous and elected its own government, they chose Hamas

Gaza isn't part of Israel.

Katie59

foxie48

Oreo

If you think hamas are effective ‘killing machines’ foxie48 then think again.
Swaggering into Israel in the early hours of the morning to murder and rape suits them better than fighting a hard battle against the IDF.
They skulk in tunnels and pop out like rats to shoot then pop back in their tunnels again.Or hide out in hospitals.

Guerilla tactics have been used in many countries and despite being outnumbered and inferior in weaponry they have beaten their opponents. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq are all examples of when guerilla tactics have been used successfully against a conventional army. I certainly do not want Hamas to win but despite having one of the most sophisticated armies funded to the tune of 3.8billion dollars in 2023, Israel is still unable to wipe Hamas out. I have absolutely no respect or regard for Hamas but it's a mistake to underestimate them.

Israel can easily wipe Hamas out in Gaza, the issue is that Hamas is using Palestinians as a shield and civilian losses are the constraint not the fighting ability of Hamas.

Exactly.

Oreo

Glorianny

I would imagine Hamas are now having a huge upsurge in recruitment. None of these people will be able to get into Gaza to fight of course. But if Israel thinks destroying Gaza will be the end of the fight with Hamas they are so mistaken. There will be young people recruited from all over the world, the citizens of many different countries. They will lie low until such time as Hamas decides to activate them. Then Israel will find protecting its borders and the illegal settlements will become much more difficult.

Sounds to me as if you like that prospect.

What an unpleasant thing to say! Neither Glorianny or any of the other Gransnet posters on any thread have supported Hamas!

Unfortunately this war WILL lead to an upsurge in support for groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, and to the lessening of safety and security for Israel.

To compare Putin to Netanyahu is bordering on insane.

I am certain that the Israelis will get rid of Netanyahu at the next election. The Russians cannot get rid of Putin whatever they do because their elections are sham.

I admit to being confused by the claims about the sovereignty of Gaza. Is it a legitimate and sovereign country or not? Whatever, since terrorists came out of Gaza and attacked Israel then Israel have the right to respond. Whether or not they should have hit back in the way they have is debatable, but the facts are that at this time, the most important thing is to get the aid into Gaza. There were some very inflammatory statements made on this thread yesterday and at least one poster has withdrawn due to that. So I will say again, because it’s what I believe, the aid should be admitted via the sea to relieve the innocents in Gaza.

Whatever you or I believe, it is clear that the Israelis will not stop until the hostages are released, or evidence of their death is provided, and the capacity of Hamas to wage terrorist atrocities in Israel is severely curtailed.