Is there anyone who still thinks that Israel's actions in Gaza are justifiable?

maddyone

To compare Putin to Netanyahu is bordering on insane.

I am certain that the Israelis will get rid of Netanyahu at the next election. The Russians cannot get rid of Putin whatever they do because their elections are sham.

I admit to being confused by the claims about the sovereignty of Gaza. Is it a legitimate and sovereign country or not? Whatever, since terrorists came out of Gaza and attacked Israel then Israel have the right to respond. Whether or not they should have hit back in the way they have is debatable, but the facts are that at this time, the most important thing is to get the aid into Gaza. There were some very inflammatory statements made on this thread yesterday and at least one poster has withdrawn due to that. So I will say again, because it’s what I believe, the aid should be admitted via the sea to relieve the innocents in Gaza.

Whatever you or I believe, it is clear that the Israelis will not stop until the hostages are released, or evidence of their death is provided, and the capacity of Hamas to wage terrorist atrocities in Israel is severely curtailed.

Are you sure you are meaning to call me insane? Not something terribly sensible - and more moderate language usually produces a better debate - but there you go.

Both Gaza and the West Bank are occupied territory, neither are sovereign. Israel is the occupying force. The populace of both territories are policed by the occupying force. They experience violence, land grab and imprisonment without trial. Israel controls their borders, land, air space. They control water and energy.

Sufficient aid cannot be delivered by sea and is the most expensive mode of delivery. Road is the most sensible and efficient way. Israel has been charged by the UN to feed those under its occupation - so far it has not complied

growstuff

Katie59

Gaza is part of Israel I’m sure they would be quite happy for Egypt to take it over but Egypt say they don’t want it. Gaza was autonomous and elected its own government, they chose Hamas

Gaza isn't part of Israel.

Gaza and the West Bank been governed by Israel for nearly 60 yrs, they are not independant states, they are not recognized by the UN as such. They both have been allowed a degree of autonomy, the West Bank probably could be an independant state but cooperation of Arab neighbours would be needed and that is not forthcoming. In addition they would need to give up the claim that Israel is Arab land, that’s not likely

Israel’s occupation is illegal and indistinguishable from a “settler-colonial” situation, which must end, as a pre-condition for Palestinians to exercise their right to self-determination, the UN’s independent expert on the occupied Palestinian territory said on Thursday.

Since the occupation first began in June 1967, Israel’s ruthless policies of land confiscation, illegal settlement and dispossession, coupled with rampant discrimination, have inflicted immense suffering on Palestinians, depriving them of their basic rights.

Israel’s military rule disrupts every aspect of daily life in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. It continues to affect whether, when and how Palestinians can travel to work or school, go abroad, visit their relatives, earn a living, attend a protest, access their farmland, or even access electricity or a clean water supply. It means daily humiliation, fear and oppression. People’s entire lives are effectively held hostage by Israel.

Israel has also adopted a complex web of military laws to crush dissent against its policies, and senior government officials have branded Israelis advocating for Palestinian rights as “traitors”.

Entire Palestinian communities have been displaced by these settlements. Their homes and livelihoods have been destroyed, they’ve had restrictions enforced on their movement, access to their own water, land and other natural resources. The communities have also been violently attacked by the Israeli military and settlers.

Amnesty

50 Years of Settlement

600,000+
Jewish Israeli settlers living on occupied Palestinian land

100,000+
Hectares of land appropriated by Israel from Palestinians since 1967

50,000
Homes and structures demolished by Israel in the OPT over the past 50 years

4.9+ MILLION
Palestinians facing daily restrictions on their movement

Apologies if my comment caused you offence Whitewave. However I didn’t say you are insane, you clearly aren’t, but the argument is bordering on insane. Perhaps I should have used the word ridiculous or even absurd. Because the comparison of the only democratic state leader in the Middle East with the almost only undemocratic state leader in Europe is obviously ridiculous. We may or may not like Netanyahu or his policies but he remains democratically elected and will most likely be unseated at the next election. Putin cannot be unseated and therefore the comparison is both without weight and ridiculous. Your opinions are usually founded in more reasonable arguments Whitewave. Anyway I apologise if my response was somewhat over the top but as I said, not meant as a slight to you, rather to the statement.

But I wasn’t talking about democracy, I was talking about the actions of ruthless leaders.

Speaking of "Democracy" not that you were WWM2. When anyone says that the Gazans voted for Hamas, I have to admit my hackles rise because I think it's being used to justify the deaths of innocent men, women and children. The last election was in 2006 and less than 50% of the population voted for Reform and Change candidates. A huge proportion of the current Gazan population either didn't vote for R and C or would have been far to young to vote, many of those who did vote for those candidates would be dead by now. There were also compelling reasons why some Gazans didn't want to vote for Fatah, the other main party. So please can people stop saying they voted Hamas in. I didn't vote conservative at the any of the last elections but I've still had to suffer the consequences of a conservative government for the last 13 years fortunately no-one has decided to bomb my life out of existence because they object to what the Conservatives have done.

Katie59

growstuff

Katie59

Gaza is part of Israel I’m sure they would be quite happy for Egypt to take it over but Egypt say they don’t want it. Gaza was autonomous and elected its own government, they chose Hamas

Gaza isn't part of Israel.

Gaza and the West Bank been governed by Israel for nearly 60 yrs, they are not independant states, they are not recognized by the UN as such. They both have been allowed a degree of autonomy, the West Bank probably could be an independant state but cooperation of Arab neighbours would be needed and that is not forthcoming. In addition they would need to give up the claim that Israel is Arab land, that’s not likely

Sorry the State of Palestine is recognised as an observer state by the UN. And is recognised as a state by 139 of UN members.
In 2011, the State of Palestine was admitted into UNESCO; in 2012, after it was accepted as an observer state of the United Nations General Assembly with the votes of 138 member states of the United Nations, the PA began to officially use the name "State of Palestine" for all purposes.

Among the G20, nine countries (Argentina, Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, and Turkey) have recognized Palestine as a state (Indonesia and Saudi Arabia recognize Palestine but not Israel), while ten countries (Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, the United Kingdom, and the United States) have not.[note 1] Although these countries generally support some form of a two-state solution to the conflict, they take the position that their recognition of a Palestinian state is conditioned to direct negotiations between Israel and the PA

As for Israel's democratic state. It has been classified by Amnesty as an Apartheid state. Would anyone have classified South Africa as a true democracy when it practised apartheid? If not why is Israel considered democratic?

The Facts are the UN does NOT recognise Palestine as a state.

Other nations are free to disagree with that, but that does not change anything, they can call the Israelis racists or apartheid, that also changes nothing, until Israel is persuaded to change their policy by whatever means the current status quo remains.

Hamas on the other hand just want Israelis driven out and no compromise

Katie59

The Facts are the UN does NOT recognise Palestine as a state.

Other nations are free to disagree with that, but that does not change anything, they can call the Israelis racists or apartheid, that also changes nothing, until Israel is persuaded to change their policy by whatever means the current status quo remains.

Hamas on the other hand just want Israelis driven out and no compromise

The UN as I said recognises Palestine as an Observer state. This is a position occupied by many countries which subsequently became full members
The practice dates from 1946, when the Secretary-General accepted the designation of the Swiss Government as a Permanent Observer to the United Nations. Observers were subsequently put forward by certain States that later became United Nations Members, including Austria, Finland, Italy, and Japan. Switzerland became a UN Member on 10 September 2002.

Denying Palestine's status is I suppose one way of justifying the appalling way Israel has behaved towards its people.

Would anyone have claimed between 1946 and 2002 Switzerland was not a state?

I very much felt the need to find and trace a history of Palestine and Statehood, and the different peace attempts (like the Oslo accord). It includes relationships with he Brits, the US, Egypt etc.

This article doesn't cover everything and I'm not agreeing with all it says, but it does trace the sad complexity to where we are now.

www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine

Personally I wish that when Israel was given State status in 1948, Palestine had too. Not being given the status of recognised international borders right from the start..

I support Israel and find it hard to understand those who don’t when Hamas still holds hostages. I’m really shocked at those marching in support of Palestinians right from the start of the Gaza war.

Huia why not just read through this whole thread.

And when do you call the Gaza war as beginning Huia?

In 1967 when Israel annexed Gaza? Did you support that?

The more recent hostage taking?

I do urge you like Aveline to read the thread as there are reports from Amnesty as to the state of matters in Gaza and a subtle variety of views.

"UK government lawyers say Israel is breaking international law, claims top Tory in leaked recording" Headline in today's Guardian.
www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/30/uk-government-lawyers-say-israel-is-breaking-international-law-claims-top-tory-in-leaked-recording

Well worth a read, basically the UK government could be guilty of aiding and abetting war crimes and we should stop supplying Israel with arms.

Yes interesting foxie48. I wonder why the government is resistant to publishing??
Apart from anything else the U.K. and USA are dependent on Israel as a strategic ally in the Middle East.

It isn't just supplying arms. The UK is training Israeli military personnel and there have been some unexplained flights into the UK since the war began. It's disgusting that we are involved in this slaughter. Think of the fuss there would have been if we were supplying Putin. www.declassifieduk.org/u-k-is-training-israeli-military-in-britain/#:~:text=Amid%20the%20genocide%20in%20Gaza,defence%2Dled%20training%20courses%E2%80%9D.&text=Britain%20is%20providing%20training%20to,

That's shocking Glorianny

I wonder if it's occurred to the Israelis that the hostages have most likely already been killed by their own bombardments? If so this one sided war will never have a peaceful ending.

The chance of getting hostages out alive by force is probably pretty slim and the relatives are very aware of this, this is why they are protesting (and getting arrested). Netanyahu's main aim is to continue the war not to release hostages, that's been clear from the start and he has stated that on a number of occasions.

This is Al-jazeera footage so I know some will ignore it, but the level of destruction can plainly be seen. And people are dying trying to get the food aid.
Does anyone really imagine that the hostages are hiding safely somewhere? www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV3q_gsTw2c

Yes it’s very upsetting isn’t it?
The hypocrisy of US. (And us) Dropping bombs and food aid!

Katie59 Israel has been driving Palestinians off their land for decades,they have tortured and murdered and celebrated it when Israeli citizens are given that land.The land they claim "god gave them 5000 years ago" .Lot of nonsense of course but this latest attack on Palestinians who just want to live their lives in peace as they did before the mess we made of an Israeli state with no firm boundaries,in law.WE are complicit in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinian people,yet folk like you still bleat about Israel being justified....in no way shape or form is whats happening legal..its a war crime of the highest order and Israel needs to be brought to book over it Genocide is not an acceptable solution to Oct 7th....Palestinians are NOT Hamas!!

I post much criticism of Israel so this is to balance things a little. Protestors demand an election and the resignation of Netanyahu.. They are joined by those who have held vigils for the hostages. I hope they prevail. www.youtube.com/watch?v=saCFmV-9G84

Yes I agree. The sooner Netanyahu, who is following his own agenda is ousted the better, for Israel and Palestine alike. There will be no hope until then.