Is there anyone who still thinks that Israel's actions in Gaza are justifiable?

Anniebach

He certainly didn’t start a fracas with Hamas

But you’d think he did, judging by some comments on this thread!

Whitewavemark2

I read reports by the UN Geneva of Israel attacking warehouses where aid is being stored waiting for Israel to open the northern Gaza border, which apparently they have no intention of doing.

Starvation by those in northern Gaza is a weapon Israel has no compunction in using.

If they are/do it is a war crime.

Anniebach

Was it taken in context

I get the reference 👏🏻
To those who don’t , swastikas were painted on placards carried by Palestinian supporters here in London and the Met did bugger all about it.
Had they been carried by right wing thugs then they’d have been arrested.A Jewish woman challenged this in a meeting, and the Met officer said to her ‘ you have to take it in context’!
Antisemitism alive and well in the Met.

Farzanah

Whitewavemark2

I read reports by the UN Geneva of Israel attacking warehouses where aid is being stored waiting for Israel to open the northern Gaza border, which apparently they have no intention of doing.

Starvation by those in northern Gaza is a weapon Israel has no compunction in using.

If they are/do it is a war crime.

IF being the word.

I read all the different comments, but I feel, and have read from various sources, that the aim of Israel is to have Gaza flatted, the people gone so they can build on there. Jared Kushner has said there could be some great Real Estate along the Gaza shoreline. Others in the Israeli cabinet want Israel to occupy the whole of the land.
I realise I might get some argument, but I just thought wouldn’t it have been nice if when Balfour made his declaration, in which he stated that the existing population in Palestine would not be affected, had stayed true. Jews and everyone else already there, living together.

Oreo Mon 01-Apr-24 13:55:48
Anniebach
Was it taken in context
I get the reference 👏🏻
To those who don’t , swastikas were painted on placards carried by Palestinian supporters here in London and the Met did bugger all about it.
Had they been carried by right wing thugs then they’d have been arrested.A Jewish woman challenged this in a meeting, and the Met officer said to her ‘ you have to take it in context’!
Antisemitism alive and well in the Met.

The Met Officer didn’t even stop drinking his coffee when he was challenged. More videos showed the Israeli marchers carrying placards say ‘Hamas are terrorists’, the angry shouting from women with the Palestine marchers , such anger

Oreo

Anniebach

He certainly didn’t start a fracas with Hamas

But you’d think he did, judging by some comments on this thread!

These things are never as clear cut as some posters make out. Truth is we do not really know the politics and manoeuvring that has gone on, but it’s important to try and get information from diverse sources, not only those that support our own bias. Reading Israeli newspapers can be enlightening. They are a very divided country.

Farzanah

Oreo

Anniebach

He certainly didn’t start a fracas with Hamas

But you’d think he did, judging by some comments on this thread!

These things are never as clear cut as some posters make out. Truth is we do not really know the politics and manoeuvring that has gone on, but it’s important to try and get information from diverse sources, not only those that support our own bias. Reading Israeli newspapers can be enlightening. They are a very divided country.

True, they are very divided but ATM the right wing Zionists hold the balance of power but there's lots of Israeli Jews who do not agree with expansion into Palestinian settlements and would agree to a two state solution. However, Netanyahu has made it very plain that he does not, and has never wanted, a two state solution. That is what he has in common with Hamas but that position is not compatible with peace so Israel lives in a constant state of readiness for war, hence 3.8billion dollars worth of weapons from the US on an annual basis! I can't imagine what it must be like living like that anymore than I can imagine how dreadful it must be to be living in Gaza. I agree reading Israeli media gives you a much better perspective on what Israelis think.

This is long as I have answered questions previously posted.

To foxie48:
'As the months go by and more information becomes available with regard to the treatment, deaths etc of Palestinians, has this changed anyone's opinion?'

Your question is the assumption that treatment, deaths and treatment of Palestinians are deliberate and not caused during an act of war in which the Palestinian people have been held as hostages by their own and used as protection.

'Today evidence of the treatment of doctors and patients in the Nasser Hospital has been verified. Does this change your opinion?'

It is difficult to know what to believe but I do know that the medical staff from Palestinian hospitals when interviewed by foreign news companies have HAD to tell lies. They are controlled, like everyone else, by Hamas. Much of what has been said to camera by doctors in untrue. Can you think of any country that bases its command centres and personnel under a hospital?

To 'Vintagewhine':
The information I gave came from a trusted source who has no reason to lie. Much information one reads in the UK press is distorted or downright lies but then no one wants to read anything positive, do they?

To Whitewavemark2:
“Al Shifa hospital is the Gaza strips largest and most advanced medical facility, and has been operating for over 70 years. And now Israel has completely destroyed it.”

Yes, the al Shifa was a large hospital, although anything they could not handle, was sent to Israel's hospitals where patients were treated, free of charge, just as if they were an Israeli. Now, please ask yourself why Israel would want to destroy a hospital? Would it give them good PR? Or, could it be that there were over 1,000 Hamas operatives embedded in the tunnels underneath with not a thought for the sick patients above.

To Whitewavemark2
'Netanyahu’s days are clearly numbered - it can’t come soon enough imo.'

You are probably correct. Netanyahu is not popular and yet, a strong leader is necessary to cope with the pressure from around the world, trying to make Israel surrender during a war they did start. If the US has asked the UK to stop bombing German civilians during WW11, would we?

To Wyllow3
'May I ask a question? Do you support the armed occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967 by the then Israeli government?
Much of what is happening now dates from those actions.'

Yes. In 1967 it was well known that Egypt was about to stage war on Israel. The pre-emptive strike was necessary. Think of Russia with miles of tanks by the Ukrainian border. Perhaps if, after that knowledge, Ukraine had acted first, less damage would have occurred to Ukrainian civilians.

To silverlining 48
'Candelle you mention rockets fired by Hamas into Israel but these are presumably diverted by superior Israeli weaponry before doing any damage but if you know, how many Israeli civilians have been killed by Hamas since /after 8 October? I would guess few but unlike the Palestinian numbers it is never reported. Every person who dies in war is a tragedy but it highlights the power and wealth imbalance between the two.'

The fact that Israel has superior defence systems does not negate the fact that they are under attack from many different sides. I do not have up to date figures of Israel civilian deaths but there are some daily. The terror of rockets raining down and disruption to life (having to run to shelters, sometimes three or more times day OR night) takes its toll on innocent people.

I have mentioned previously that one cannot believe much that comes from a war zone. Obviously tens of thousands of poor Palestinian people have been killed: that it purely and simply down to Hamas operating in the cities, schools and hospitals. I cannot think of any other country where this has been the norm and so many civilians have been harmed. Yet, apparently this is Israel's fault. It is not. Israel values life. Please do not forget that the Palestinian people are brought up to hate Israel and Jewish people.

'Every person who dies in war is a tragedy but it highlights the power and wealth imbalance between the two.'

I agree, every death is awful but is the wealth balance between the two relevant? Israel was a pile of sand but has evolved, with hard work into a viable democracy. There is much corruption in other countries and money that should have reached the Palestinians has not. This is not Israel's fault, is it?
You mention how the Palestinians are living in rubble with little food or water. Please understand that Hamas controls food and water in Palestine. Have you thought that Hamas, well prepared for war, took absolutely no steps to feed their population whom they knew would be forced to evacuate from areas. No preparations for them at all (except in the higher echelons, where their villas are still standing etc.) The Palestinian population is just fodder to their leaders and great PR world-wide. All the money that has been pumped in to Palestine has never reached the general populace, instead it has been creamed off.

I have not even mentioned that there is almost no aid to the Palestinian people from all the unbelievably wealthy Arab nations that practically surround Israel.

Why does Egypt not open their border to the Palestinians?

I have in the past asked questions which are not answered: why is there so much support for Palestine, an aggressor, whilst meanwhile 750,00 deaths have occurred in Syria? Answers, anyone?

If not Syria, how about Somalia or Sudan or Yemen. Could it be that the Israeli people are Jewish? Please, someone prove me wrong.

Just think about it Candelle.

Oreo

Anniebach

Was it taken in context

I get the reference 👏🏻
To those who don’t , swastikas were painted on placards carried by Palestinian supporters here in London and the Met did bugger all about it.
Had they been carried by right wing thugs then they’d have been arrested.A Jewish woman challenged this in a meeting, and the Met officer said to her ‘ you have to take it in context’!
Antisemitism alive and well in the Met.

Oreo They aren’t anti Semitic, they’re just thick 😡

Candelle you are right, it is because they are Jewish. There is blatant anti semitism on our own streets too, hence the policeman telling a Jewish woman on Saturday that a
swastika has to be taken in context. Unbelievable, but true. Antisemitism is alive and well. In Britain as well as the Middle East. And the rest of the world too.

petra they maybe as you describe, but I prefer the word uneducated. It has been established that many of the marchers on the pro Palestinian protests have never heard of the Holocaust. Unbelievable but true. GCSE History covers history of the last century, and that includes the Holocaust. If a person didn’t sit GCSE History, and has little interest or motivation to find out, and spends their holidays on a beach in Spain, rather than visiting Berlin, Amsterdam, or other countries in Eastern Europe, or has never visited Auschwitz or any one of many concentration camp sites, how would they know?

When I went to school The Diary of Anne Frank was required reading. It made me want to find out more and I then went on to read Elli; Coming of Age in the Holocaust. I have since read a number of other memoirs and visited a number of sites and museums that have fully explained what exactly happened in the Holocaust. Many don’t know. There is an excellent exhibition in The Imperial War Museum in London. People don’t need to go to Eastern Europe to find out.

Aveline

Just think about it Candelle.

I read Candelle's post and it looked to me as if she had thought about all the points she answered.

Whether you agree or not is another point.

I was recommended to read a book at the weekend, it’s called Son of Hamas: A Gripping Account of Terror, Betrayal, Political Intrigue, and Impossible Choices, by Moab Hassan Yousef. I’ve ordered it on Amazon. I’m told it is eye opening. The author is the son of a Hamas Commander. I shall report back when I’ve read it.

100% Candelle post

To foxie48:
'As the months go by and more information becomes available with regard to the treatment, deaths etc of Palestinians, has this changed anyone's opinion?'

"Your question is the assumption that treatment, deaths and treatment of Palestinians are deliberate and not caused during an act of war in which the Palestinian people have been held as hostages by their own and used as protection.

'Today evidence of the treatment of doctors and patients in the Nasser Hospital has been verified. Does this change your opinion?'"
CandelleNo, my question does not make any assumption of whether the deaths are "deliberate" or not. Under the Geneva Convention, rules of war, it requires Israel to "Protect all civilians, including those in occupied territory." The key word is "protect" when over 30k people have been killed and over 75k have been wounded, including a very high percentage of women and children, it is impossible to believe that the civilian population is being protected.
Another of the four rules of war is to "Treat prisoners of war with humanity." IDF soldiers have posted on the internet thousands of videos showing prisoners, the BBC has verified some of them and they are of Palestinian prisoners. See the link below.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68249962
Another of the rules of war is to "Protect the sick, wounded, medical and religious personnel during conflict" There has been lots of evidence that they have not done this, the damage done to the medical infrastructure of Gaza is obvious, lots of pictures in the media but also Christians in the Holy Family Church situated in north Gaza have been killed, 2 women by IDF snipers, 19 by military action and 11 because of a lack of medical care. Link to Catholic Herald
catholicherald.co.uk/thirty-christians-killed-in-israels-war-with-hamas-say-church-sources/

maddyone

petra they maybe as you describe, but I prefer the word uneducated. It has been established that many of the marchers on the pro Palestinian protests have never heard of the Holocaust. Unbelievable but true. GCSE History covers history of the last century, and that includes the Holocaust. If a person didn’t sit GCSE History, and has little interest or motivation to find out, and spends their holidays on a beach in Spain, rather than visiting Berlin, Amsterdam, or other countries in Eastern Europe, or has never visited Auschwitz or any one of many concentration camp sites, how would they know?

The Holocaust is the only compulsory topic in the history curriculum and is taught in KS3 usually to 13-14 year olds. This has been the case since 1991.

Perhaps it’s because many of the protesters didn’t live in this country when they were KS3. I taught younger children but I know my children did history GCSE and learnt about it. Nonetheless I watched a news item some weeks ago (before Christmas, I know that as it was before we went to NZ) but I can’t remember which channel, but they were asking people what they knew about the Holocaust and the ignorance was astounding.

Candelle

This is long as I have answered questions previously posted.

To foxie48:
'As the months go by and more information becomes available with regard to the treatment, deaths etc of Palestinians, has this changed anyone's opinion?'

Your question is the assumption that treatment, deaths and treatment of Palestinians are deliberate and not caused during an act of war in which the Palestinian people have been held as hostages by their own and used as protection.

'Today evidence of the treatment of doctors and patients in the Nasser Hospital has been verified. Does this change your opinion?'

It is difficult to know what to believe but I do know that the medical staff from Palestinian hospitals when interviewed by foreign news companies have HAD to tell lies. They are controlled, like everyone else, by Hamas. Much of what has been said to camera by doctors in untrue. Can you think of any country that bases its command centres and personnel under a hospital?

To 'Vintagewhine':
The information I gave came from a trusted source who has no reason to lie. Much information one reads in the UK press is distorted or downright lies but then no one wants to read anything positive, do they?

To Whitewavemark2:
“Al Shifa hospital is the Gaza strips largest and most advanced medical facility, and has been operating for over 70 years. And now Israel has completely destroyed it.”

Yes, the al Shifa was a large hospital, although anything they could not handle, was sent to Israel's hospitals where patients were treated, free of charge, just as if they were an Israeli. Now, please ask yourself why Israel would want to destroy a hospital? Would it give them good PR? Or, could it be that there were over 1,000 Hamas operatives embedded in the tunnels underneath with not a thought for the sick patients above.

To Whitewavemark2
'Netanyahu’s days are clearly numbered - it can’t come soon enough imo.'

You are probably correct. Netanyahu is not popular and yet, a strong leader is necessary to cope with the pressure from around the world, trying to make Israel surrender during a war they did start. If the US has asked the UK to stop bombing German civilians during WW11, would we?

To Wyllow3
'May I ask a question? Do you support the armed occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967 by the then Israeli government?
Much of what is happening now dates from those actions.'

Yes. In 1967 it was well known that Egypt was about to stage war on Israel. The pre-emptive strike was necessary. Think of Russia with miles of tanks by the Ukrainian border. Perhaps if, after that knowledge, Ukraine had acted first, less damage would have occurred to Ukrainian civilians.

To silverlining 48
'Candelle you mention rockets fired by Hamas into Israel but these are presumably diverted by superior Israeli weaponry before doing any damage but if you know, how many Israeli civilians have been killed by Hamas since /after 8 October? I would guess few but unlike the Palestinian numbers it is never reported. Every person who dies in war is a tragedy but it highlights the power and wealth imbalance between the two.'

The fact that Israel has superior defence systems does not negate the fact that they are under attack from many different sides. I do not have up to date figures of Israel civilian deaths but there are some daily. The terror of rockets raining down and disruption to life (having to run to shelters, sometimes three or more times day OR night) takes its toll on innocent people.

I have mentioned previously that one cannot believe much that comes from a war zone. Obviously tens of thousands of poor Palestinian people have been killed: that it purely and simply down to Hamas operating in the cities, schools and hospitals. I cannot think of any other country where this has been the norm and so many civilians have been harmed. Yet, apparently this is Israel's fault. It is not. Israel values life. Please do not forget that the Palestinian people are brought up to hate Israel and Jewish people.

'Every person who dies in war is a tragedy but it highlights the power and wealth imbalance between the two.'

I agree, every death is awful but is the wealth balance between the two relevant? Israel was a pile of sand but has evolved, with hard work into a viable democracy. There is much corruption in other countries and money that should have reached the Palestinians has not. This is not Israel's fault, is it?
You mention how the Palestinians are living in rubble with little food or water. Please understand that Hamas controls food and water in Palestine. Have you thought that Hamas, well prepared for war, took absolutely no steps to feed their population whom they knew would be forced to evacuate from areas. No preparations for them at all (except in the higher echelons, where their villas are still standing etc.) The Palestinian population is just fodder to their leaders and great PR world-wide. All the money that has been pumped in to Palestine has never reached the general populace, instead it has been creamed off.

I have not even mentioned that there is almost no aid to the Palestinian people from all the unbelievably wealthy Arab nations that practically surround Israel.

Why does Egypt not open their border to the Palestinians?

I have in the past asked questions which are not answered: why is there so much support for Palestine, an aggressor, whilst meanwhile 750,00 deaths have occurred in Syria? Answers, anyone?

If not Syria, how about Somalia or Sudan or Yemen. Could it be that the Israeli people are Jewish? Please, someone prove me wrong.

Oh dear Candelle where to begin. Let's start with doctors and hospitals. Many of the doctors who have worked in Gaza have been volunteers from other countries. When they returned home they have spoken about their experiences. Who do you think was forcing them to do this? Some doctors reported to the UN. abcnews.go.com/International/doctors-worked-gaza-warn-invasion-rafah-apocalyptic/story?id=108294947

Egypt will not open its borders to the people of Gaza because they believe Israel needs to return the land they seized and occupied to them.

How is Palestine an "agressor"? It has no armed forces, no weaponry, no means of organising armed actions.

Al-Shifah isn't the only hospital destroyed. Currently only 12 of Gaza's 36 hospitals are operating. Some of the damage in those hospitals is deliberate and not the result of fighting. It isa war crime to attack a hospital

Palestinian treatment in Israeli hospitals has always been limited. There are records of Palestinian women giving birth at checkpoints because they have not been permitted to travel to the Israeli hospital they needed.

Food and water
Gaza has never been self sufficient for food, and water has always been controlled by Israel.
www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

Candarelle, I've no idea who your trusted source is tbh if your post is based on information from that source I'd certainly question how unbiased it is.

Egypt won’t open its borders because they don’t want Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood walking in and destabilising their country. The value of their currency is dropping because of the war, tourists they need cancelling
Egypt needs to stand firm with its politically neutral position

If no knowledge of the Holocaust why carry placards with a
swastika on whilst facing Jews

That’s an interesting question Annie.
Maybe the placard carriers are not the same people who denied knowledge of the Holocaust. Or maybe the deniers lied.