Is there anyone who still thinks that Israel's actions in Gaza are justifiable?

foxie48

Sorry also meant to say, Biafra ceased to exist in 1970.

There is still a Biafra government in exile and they are still fighting for independence despite over 3 million deaths. It puts Gaza into context, Biafra still believes in its right to independence just like Palestine and many other ethnic groups.

Hamas and other groups do say that

The aim of Hamas is to destroy Israel and drive the Jews out, all of those supporting Gaza are supporting that aim because Hamas is Gaza. They control life and death of everyone in Gaza, to them every death is a martyr and a sacrifice to conquer Israel.

Israel has no choice but to drive Hamas out, because the existence of the state is threatened

I actually vomited reading WhiteWave post. I can now understand how people worked in death camps , fed constant
drips of antisemitism as we hear daily

The following was written by a Jewish American political scientist whose parents were Holocaust survivors. He has written extensively about the politics of the Holocaust and Jewish experience throughout the post war and more recent years.

Norman Finklestein.

STARVE OR LEAVE

Let’s cut to the chase: of course Israel deliberately targeted the WCK relief convoy. Not only do all the material facts point to this conclusion. There also aren’t any grounds to doubt it; the heavy burden of proof falls on Israel to demonstrate that it was not a premeditated strike. On October 8, 2023, Israel announced a total blockade of Gaza: no food, fuel, water, or electricity would be allowed in. The rationale behind this order was laid out by former Israeli National Security Council head Giora Eiland: “Israel should not allow any economic assistance. The people should be told that they have two choices: to stay and to starve, or to leave.” For the next two weeks, Israel blocked the entry of any aid into Gaza. Flagrant mass murder not being a good look, President Biden counseled Prime Minister Netanyahu to lighten up a bit. Israel tweaked its murder plan so as to pass muster with its enablers in Washington. But it did not alter the essence of its game-plan. Human Rights Watch documented in December that Israel was “using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare.” Normally reticent senior international and humanitarian officials have in recent weeks openly charged that “Starvation is used as a weapon of war. Israel is provoking famine." (Josop Borrell, EU foreign policy chief) If—as everyone seems to agree—Israel’s declared objective is to starve Gaza’s civilian population, then: HOW COULD IT NOT PLUG THE HOLES IN ITS MURDER PLAN BY TARGETING INTERNATIONAL RELIEF ORGANIZATIONS? And in fact it’s mission accomplished: international aid operations in Gaza have largely ceased “as a result of recent attacks on humanitarian workers by the IDF.” (“Letter to the White House and National Security Council,” April 4, 2024) But it might be wondered: Wasn’t it foolhardy for Israel to risk international opprobrium? Not at all. Israel has targeted by various metrics an historically unprecedented number of hospitals, medics, journalists, and aid workers; it has killed an unprecedented number of women and children. It is ever testing the limits of the permissible. So far, it’s successfully crossed every downward threshold into barbarism with impunity. It’s impossible to predict in advance which story will be picked up by the fickle international media and which story will just get passing notice. The latest atrocity could just as easily have been subsumed in a paragraph on the inside pages under the title “Aid workers killed in Gaza.” The only error Israel might have—it’s too soon to tell—committed was anticipating that it would get another free pass. Indeed, Israel’s news bureau in the US, the New York Times, is already spinning the story to exonerate Israel: “botched operation ... mistakes and misjudgments ... accidental killing.” (“Back-to-Back Israeli Strikes Show Tragic Gaps in Choosing Targets,” April 4, 2024) It’s also being said that it’s not senior Israeli officials but on the contrary IDF field commanders and soldiers who are out of control, or that Israel’s resort to AI is behind the hecatomb in Gaza. That’s all bullshit. During its periodic “mowing-the-lawn” hi-tech murder sprees in Gaza (Operation Cast Lead, Operation Protective Edge), Israel has always used DISCRIMINATELY INDISCRIMINATE firepower to terrorize Gaza’s civilian population into submission. The nub of the problem is neither disciplinary nor technical. It’s Israel’s murder plan: to make Gaza unlivable and to force its people to decide—starve or leave.

Anniebach

I actually vomited reading WhiteWave post. I can now understand how people worked in death camps , fed constant
drips of antisemitism as we hear daily

I won’t report your post as frankly I can’t get terribly het up by something so patently absurd that it is hardly worth a minutes thought.

annie you need to step back and take a breath.

To get back to Finklestein. This ties in very well with the interview channel 4 (news) carried out last night with an ex-IDF officer, who belongs to a group of military men who are concerned that the truth of Israeli strategy is not being told to the world.

People worked in death camps because the alternative would be that they and their families would die too. I’ve often wondered how many of us would have had the courage to stand up to the Nazis because I know that I would have done anything to protect my children.

I agree with what Norman Finkekstein, writer of the above piece. It was always the plan, starve or leave…but where to .?

There is NO anti semitism on here Anniebach just a lot of anti Israeli state .Are the jewish folk who march on Pro Palestine marches and have been marching with us for over 20 years ,anti semitic ?

Whitewavemark2

Throughout my entire life I have always had so much goodwill towards Israel and it’s right to exist although have always had doubts over the way the Palestinians have been treated, but I always excused Israel as a special case.

I have also always separated anti-semitism from the Israeli state, and my attitude towards any form of anti-semitism remains rock solid.

But the really sad thing is that my goodwill towards Israel has gradually drained away until today I consider their actions to be no different from other pariah states and I do not feel any longer able to consider that they have a special reason to exist. They must imo stand by their actions and show the world that they belong to the civilised world and not to a state that has no compunction in delivering barbarism at an industrial level.

I think that this is how I feel about the whole sorry business. I cannot take a side. Razing Gaza will not defeat Hamas and if that is Israel's aim then it will have to attack Hamas hideouts in other countries too. In other words, when will Israel decide that justice has been done for the terrible Hamas attack? I don't fully support Israel's actions but, and I am disgusted that I have to spell this out, that does NOT mean that by default I am supporting the actions of the terrorist organisation that is Hamas. I just want it all to stop.

I wonder. There is a post from one of the doctors reporting to the UN saying that neighboring countries have agreed to take 8000 injured children for treatment outside Gaza. The children were not being moved quickly, but if they do go how many will ever return? And how many parents would leave Gaza to be reunited with their children? It's insidious and it's shameful, but I can see it might happen.

Another doctor, wonder how they have time to work, so busy giving interviews

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Anniebach

Another doctor, wonder how they have time to work, so busy giving interviews

This is he same report to the UN made originally Annie when one doctor reports on a little girl who died two days after evacuation because her injuries were so severe and evacuation took so long. He had a photograph of her.
I really don't understand why you would question these doctors. They are eminent figures, well known in their home countries who went to Gaza to help save lives, are you suggesting they are Hamas, or anti-semitic or just lying?
Do you think everyone who reports on the horrific injuries to children is lying? Why on earth would they?

Post references deleted post Talk guidelines.

I have explained several times, I dislike the playing of children
card, and it is played. I didn’t believe the casualties numbers in
February of Gaza and Ukraine , more casualties Gaza in 3 months than Ukraine in 2. Years,

Maybe that’s because a lot of women and children were able to escape from Ukraine and were welcomed by other countries. Where were the women and children of Gaza supposed to go? They don’t even own their own sea do they?

Not child casualties, civilian casualties

From: growstuff Thu 04-Apr-24 15:38:34

To: 'Candelle
Could someone please tell me how Israel was to deal with these murdering terrorists? Ask them nicely to please go away?'

Are you suggesting that the people in the aid convoy were murdering terrorists?

No, Growstuff, of course not. I asked a question which is never answered. It is:

What was Israel supposed to do after the murders and hostage-taking of October 7th.

I am particularly keen to see responses from those who are so vehement in their criticism of Israel. It's a simple enough question.

candelle I will not repeat what I have said over and over as you are clearly not paying attention, and there is no reason to assume that my reply would have any more attention this time around.

Israel's actions in Gaza are disgusting. People are, in effect, imprisoned within a relatively small strip of land, not knowing which way to go to avoid being attacked. I don't understand how anyone can justify Israel's actions - denying water, food, medication and shelter to ordinary people. I am disgusted with all the governments - including our own - who are complicit in this genocide.

Candelle no-one as far as I can remember has said that Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself, it has been said by a number of posters, as well as members of the UN, members of our own government, the representatives of international charities etc etc that as a signatory to the Geneva Convention, Israel must abide by the rules of war. Hamas is a terrorist organisation and doesn't abide by anyone's rules but that does not justify Israel ignoring the Geneva Convention. If Israel continues to ignore the GC any country supplying military aid is complicit in war crimes. You may not like it. It may make dealing with Hamas difficult however Israel is one of the most sophisticated countries when it comes to weapons. They are funded by the US to the tune of 3.8billion dollars annually with weapons of war. It is for their defence but they are not using them selectively to kill terrorists (even their own media recognise this) and they are also preventing aid reaching the civilian population. Your question may be simple but the answer requires a more sophisticated incursion than is currently being used by the IDF.

Pro Palastine marching with photographs of Hitler are marching towards a group of Israel supporters. The Police had no problem with pro Palestine group carrying photographs of
Hitler. No surprise there

It’s only six days since the last march Annie, not even a week has gone by.