Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Doodledog - thanks for that summary and for staying here

I'm a bit like you too fancythat sometimes others have said similar things to my own thoughts, so I don't post.
But I do wonder if on contencious subjects such as this one, it's best to counter point for point?

Namsnanny

But we can look at it another way Doodledog Wheniwasyourage.
If we consider that people who are captured by a cult cannot help themselves, and are most unlikely accept challenges to their belief system. Then questioning all that they say in open discussion is very beneficial to those on the margins.
Those who are vulnerable or know someone who is vulnerable can and will see the arguments for and against put in clear language.
They will observe the different ways each chose to 'defend' their position.

Which is why what you and others who dont give up do on threads here is valuable.

For my self I stick to the basics.
Facts are facts.
No shutting down free speach
No Trans ideology in schools
No barbaric surgery on children
No men in womens spaces

I agree, Namsnanny, and part of the reason I keep repeating myself on these threads is that I am aware that there are people reading who don't post. I think this is one of those topics where people often start off thinking that trans rights are an extension of gay rights and a general 'live and let live' outlook. I know I felt like that when I first met a transwoman many years ago, and where individual transpeople are concerned I still do.

It takes an incident or particular realisation (often called 'being peaked') to make people stop and think 'Hang on a minute - this is not really about individual people just wanting to live their lives. It's about forcing people to accept and endorse views they may not hold, and removing rights from women that took years to acquire'. For me, this realisation happened in a number of ways, which I will relate in no particular order.

Firstly when I posted on here asking about young people being given hormones, binders and so on when they said they felt they were 'in the wrong body', and why we couldn't broaden the parameters of gender stereotypes so that there were no 'boys' and 'girls' ways of being? It was a straight question with no agenda, on a seemingly reasonable thread. I was a new poster, and taken aback when I was rounded on and told in no uncertain terms that this was prejudiced, that I needed to 'educate myself' and that I was speaking to seasoned feminists who knew what they were talking about. I did 'educate myself' and discovered that there was no answer to my original question, which is why no attempt was made to address it on the thread.

Secondly, a lesbian friend of mine went on a dating site and met up with a transwoman posing as a lesbian. My friend was not interested in going further, as she is not interested in sex with male bodies, which, obviously, is not unusual for lesbians. She was shaken when the transwoman turned nasty, she was called a TERF, and the transwoman became threatening.

Thirdly, a conversation about males in women's toilets reminded me of years ago, when I was a student, and a friend of mine was sexually assaulted in the ladies' loo. A man had gone in there, obviously intending to find a victim. Fortunately one of the bar staff had seen him disappear into the corridor where the Ladies' was, and when he didn't come back the alarm was raised, just in time to save my friend from being raped. I realised that if that happened now, it would be far less likely that someone would react, as men just have to say they are women to be allowed in there legitimately. If they dress as a woman it is highly unlikely that they would be questioned (particularly in a student bar) and even if they didn't it would be a brave barman who would risk his job by 'misgendering'.

Finally, a colleague of mine was asked to declare pronouns on emails and Zoom/Teams screens, which were used a lot during lockdown. I don't want to go into a lot of detail, as it is not my story to tell, but this person was known by one identity at home (not in the UK) and another at work, and did not want the discrepancy to be discovered by family, which could very easily have happened.

I am not a TERF. I am not phobic. I have never intentionally discriminated against anyone. I am neither racist nor homophobic, although I have been accused of both on here. I am not a Nazi, although I have been accused of that, too, and have seen others similarly accused for not bowing to the trans allies' diktats. I do not want to make anyone's life more difficult than it already is. Those insults are unwarranted, and IMO show the paucity of logic or reason in the arguments in favour of self-ID. I think we all get 'peaked' at different times and in different ways, but if someone reads threads on here and something resonates it is worth the frustration of going round in circles so much.

VioletSky

My perspective is my perspective, one formulated over years reading these threads where I have time and time again tried engaging respectfully and been attacked on a personal level. where my view that we can get everyone's rights heard and respected with a common sense approach has been shut down.

If you don't like my perspective, change it... That's in your power not mine, I just say what I see

I also say what I see. VS. If you condone a lie, then suggesting we change your perspective would be a waste of time.

I hear you say that everyone’s rights should be heard and respected, as long as the right to inflict an untruth on others is given the most precedence.

No one so far has managed to explain why a lie is suddenly to be respected , especially when the outcomes of that lie always seem to be detrimental to females.
If you or anyone can explain how the untruth that humans can change sex, which the claimants use to lie, cheat, and threaten females should be respected then go ahead.

Personally, I do not reply sometimes, or get worked up, about certain posters.
They have their views and I have mine.

I will reply sometimes, if there are not many of us on a thread. Or they may have said something unbiblical, something like that.

My perspective is my perspective, one formulated over years reading these threads where I have time and time again tried engaging respectfully and been attacked on a personal level. where my view that we can get everyone's rights heard and respected with a common sense approach has been shut down.

If you don't like my perspective, change it... That's in your power not mine, I just say what I see

But we can look at it another way Doodledog Wheniwasyourage.
If we consider that people who are captured by a cult cannot help themselves, and are most unlikely accept challenges to their belief system. Then questioning all that they say in open discussion is very beneficial to those on the margins.
Those who are vulnerable or know someone who is vulnerable can and will see the arguments for and against put in clear language.
They will observe the different ways each chose to 'defend' their position.

Which is why what you and others who dont give up do on threads here is valuable.

For my self I stick to the basics.
Facts are facts.
No shutting down free speach
No Trans ideology in schools
No barbaric surgery on children
No men in womens spaces

No. As I said way upthread, however well they start, they end up being like a choreographed dance, with the same old tropes, insults and diversionary tactics brought into play every time.

It's like plaiting fog.

What Dickens said. These threads never get anywhere really, do they?

Well said Dickens although I do think that tiresome is an understatement.

VioletSky

Syracute

So much anger and hate here . Very sad . Maybe if posters watch and read about the trans population and what they go through there would be more understanding . You certainly can’t think it would be safe for a trans female to be in a men’s toilet or trans male in a woman’s toilet . In most cases you really won’t know the difference . I follow a few on social media to get their insight . I do think Rowling is creating more hate with her remarks .

With many other discussions people are capable of self reflection and would consider why reading the thread made you feel this way and work to address that.

Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying trans people in general and absolutely no responsibility taken for the harm caused by the way opinions are expressed here

VioletSky

Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying trans people in general and absolutely no responsibility taken for the harm caused by the way opinions are expressed here

You know jolly well VS that Rosie51, Doodledog, Mollygo, Elegran, Iam64, others and myself are NOT vilifying trans people in general. That is just a spiteful accusation which you took the opportunity to make because another poster made similar assertions about anger and hate and you jumped under her umbrella.

You never address the particular aspects that we are debating - just make generalised observations about personal responsibility and other vague references about why can't we all treat everyone with respect, or self reflect.

Honestly VS it's tiresome having to keep reminding you that we are discussing a particular aspect of transgenderism, not the principle itself. We know that people identify in different ways, some of us have experienced ourselves the gulf between what society expects of us - traditionally - as women, and how we determine ourselves. We know that neither sex should be compelled to behave stereotypically in order to satisfy someone else's idea of what a man or woman is. This is not what we are discussing, we are discussing one very important aspect of transgenderism - and you know what that is without me having to labour the point yet again. We are not questioning transgenderism as a principle.

So I really wish you'd stop these ill-defined claims about us. It definitely is a bit passive-aggressive and it evokes a response out of sheer frustration, and then off we go again and the thread then becomes about how we are attacking you when, in fact, what we are doing is defending ourselves against your continual goady prompting to examine and 'work' on our collective conscience.

Like I said upthread, the majority are being asked to accept that science and biology are wrong and that it is possible to change one’s sex.

This is blatantly wrong and impossible at this moment in time.

I have absolutely no problem with people living their lives as they wish, but do have a problem being part of 51% of the worlds population having my sex and all that is stands for eroded by misogyny.

I see no hatred here Syacrute so perhaps you could give specific examples of the hatred you have seen.

There is no vilifying trans people in general VS, perhaps you could give specific examples too.

Like you AGAA4 I wont compromise my beliefs because someone disagrees with them or tells me that I should because of unfounded and so far unsubstantiated accusations of hate.

I agree Galaxy that It's particularly difficult to self reflect on a stance that has been wrong every step of the way.

The self reflect suggestion used by you VS is a passive aggressive tactic, but I doubt you would recognise or accept it as such.
Suggesting that if I self reflect I would decide to believe a lie or accept the behaviour of some TIM as not being detrimental to women is as ridiculous. Would your self reflection lead you to accept that a lie is wrong however often it is repeated or understand that if that lie harms females and many trans too, it is doubly wrong?
I’d be interested to know.

Elegran

There isn't actually much point trying to reason with those who see only hate in the thread. They are looking through their "I expect there to be hate, so I can't see anything else" specs.

They should try the experiment of counting how many times posters have used the words "some transwomen" or "some transactivists".

It’s similar in its projection to those who call others pathetic, imply that they are racist and so on, and then accuse them of making personal attacks. Or wrongly claiming that people have no answer to points they’ve raised, whilst themselves simultaneously ignoring direct questions or point-blank refusing to answer them for years.

The Cass report will soon be with us

There isn't actually much point trying to reason with those who see only hate in the thread. They are looking through their "I expect there to be hate, so I can't see anything else" specs.

They should try the experiment of counting how many times posters have used the words "some transwomen" or "some transactivists".

AGAA4

Asking women to self reflect is actually trying to undermine their beliefs. It is a ploy used by controlling men to gain the upper hand.
I won't compromise my own beliefs because someone on GN tells me to and I believe that a minority of trans women are trying to make changes to the detriment of all women.

👏👏👏

Asking women to self reflect is actually trying to undermine their beliefs. It is a ploy used by controlling men to gain the upper hand.
I won't compromise my own beliefs because someone on GN tells me to and I believe that a minority of trans women are trying to make changes to the detriment of all women.

At some point grown ups have to take responsibility for their own viewpoints. It's very important to listen to views different to yours and to also think, sometimes that results in changing your mind. However it's quite odd to be in a constant state of 'flux' because someone holds a different view to you. So if I 'self reflect' on what a poster says and change my view because of 'feelings' do I then self reflect after the next poster agrees with me. Its particularly difficult to self reflect on a stance that has been wrong every step of the way. The cass report is out this week, perhaps people will self reflect on that.

VS if you seriously believe that people should alter their considered beliefs because someone on the internet doesn’t agree with them or feels that they come from a place of prejudice, why haven’t you changed your own? Being told that women should put the feelings of men ahead of their own and those of their daughters is upsetting to me, and seems to come from a place of hatred for (or at least a lack of consideration for) women. Have you reflected on that?

VS
Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying trans people in general and absolutely no responsibility taken for the harm caused by the way opinions are expressed here

Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying those who try to protect females specifically from those TIM who harm them by cheating, lying, threatening and actual violence.

And absolutely no responsibility taken by those who refuse to condemn those actions for the harm caused, either to females or to trans people in general by the way they show that on here.

With many other discussions people are capable of self reflection and would consider why reading the thread made you feel this way and work to address that.
Good own goal VS, because

Those who are incapable of self reflection about the harm they are encouraging, by pretending TIM issues aren’t caused by some TIM themselves and their TRA supporters, are also those who refuse to work to improve their own understanding and acknowledgement of the damage caused by those two groups..

Syracute

So much anger and hate here . Very sad . Maybe if posters watch and read about the trans population and what they go through there would be more understanding . You certainly can’t think it would be safe for a trans female to be in a men’s toilet or trans male in a woman’s toilet . In most cases you really won’t know the difference . I follow a few on social media to get their insight . I do think Rowling is creating more hate with her remarks .

With many other discussions people are capable of self reflection and would consider why reading the thread made you feel this way and work to address that.

Sadly you will get the same justifications vilifying trans people in general and absolutely no responsibility taken for the harm caused by the way opinions are expressed here

Syracute

So much anger and hate here . Very sad . Maybe if posters watch and read about the trans population and what they go through there would be more understanding . You certainly can’t think it would be safe for a trans female to be in a men’s toilet or trans male in a woman’s toilet . In most cases you really won’t know the difference . I follow a few on social media to get their insight . I do think Rowling is creating more hate with her remarks .

Where is the hatred on this thread.

I’m not going to repeat the carefully considered responses from Rosie 51 and Doodledog. You should read them again if you’re still confused.

But before you talk about hatred Syracute

Have you seen the threats to JKR and her family?

Have you been at a meeting where TRA and TIM have threatened violence and hurled abuse at females?

Have you read the lies and threats that spew forth from India Willoughby’s mouth every time he speaks?

Have you been a patient on a female hospital ward, because you’re already traumatised by a man, where a TIM, visibly demonstrating his maleness demands very vocally to be treated as a woman, despite the fact that his presence is further harming the other patients?

On here, all you can have read is continued condemnation of the actions of a few TIM who are willing to harm females and damage the reputation of any trans who don’t deserve to be regarded in that way.

Saying you can change sex is a lie. Using that lie to harm others is unacceptable . . . for most people.

That’s not hatred, that’s truth.

Syracute

So much anger and hate here . Very sad . Maybe if posters watch and read about the trans population and what they go through there would be more understanding . You certainly can’t think it would be safe for a trans female to be in a men’s toilet or trans male in a woman’s toilet . In most cases you really won’t know the difference . I follow a few on social media to get their insight . I do think Rowling is creating more hate with her remarks .

Where is the hate on this thread?

If it’s not safe for a male-bodied person to be in a male loo, how is it safe to have males in a women’s loo? It is men who carry out the vast amount of assaults, so why do you think that it should be up to women to find ways to give them what they want.

The reason men and women have separate spaces in the first place was to protect women from predatory males. Most men are not predators, but we can’t tell which are which. Now we are being told that we have to allow males into women’s spaces and if we don’t, we are being hateful. Again, we aren’t saying that all transwomen are predators, but how are we supposed to know which is which?