Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Doodledog Thu 04-Apr-24 22:25:43
It’s a derailing attempt, Dickens. The more we discuss hypothetical nonsense about misogynists mistaking transwomen for women and hating them the less time we have to ask questions that can then be ignored.

Rosie51 Thu 04-Apr-24 22:46:32
Good post Dickens, but as Doodledog says it's all an attempt at derailing. When you raise transwomen or men with DSDs competing in women's sports Glorianny offers up a plethora of other problems that should be sorted out before that's considered. Women's needs always, but always take relegation behind men's wants.

Yes - quite.

These hypothetical points are being raised as a kind of "ah, gotchya on that one!" I would imagine that all legislation has its finer points which need to be considered, but which doesn't alter the basic principle which, in this case, is that misogyny is hatred of women - because they are women.

Well saidLizziedrip I’m in agreement with you.
Minority groups have been vilified for far too long and I’m so proud of Scotland for taking a stand

I absolutely support JKR.

I resigned from my local W.I. at the end of last month over the undemocratic way the NFWI have dealt with the issue of permitting TiM’s to become members. I have yet to receive a reply to my resignation email.

grannyactivist I’m afraid you won’t get an answer from NFWI. I am now on their ‘banned’ list. However whenever we get someone from County to visit I make a point of voicing my concerns. However they have obviously been trained in how to respond. The last one sounded like a ‘Stepford Wife’ in her practised response 😏

I’m still hanging on in there as I love my WI, have made many good friends and enjoy our time together, however I would stand by my principles and would leave if we admitted a transwoman to our group.

Bonnybanko you really don't get it. Scotland is a laughing stock for this very badly drafted, ill thought out bill. The poor police are inundated and must be furious at having to deal with the thousands of cases being reported to them. Women are so grateful to JKRowling for her principled stand to protect them.

Today I read this
POLICE SCOTLAND has been forced to pay control room staff overtime as the deluge of complaints under Humza Yousaf’s hate crime laws exceeded 6,000, it has been claimed.
David Kennedy, the general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation (SPF), said that he expected the force’s bill to the taxpayer for overtime and other costs to total “hundreds of thousands” of pounds.
Insiders believe that the force has now received more than 6,000 complaints since the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act came into force on Monday. Police Scotland has said it is collating the figures.
Mr Yousaf admitted he was “very, very concerned” by the number of “vexatious” complaints being lodged under the new law but claimed he was not surprised
This is despite him telling Sky News on Monday there was “absolutely no evidence” to support warnings that there would be a large increase in the number of vexatious hate complaints.
What was he thinking of?

Rosie51

Good post Dickens, but as Doodledog says it's all an attempt at derailing. When you raise transwomen or men with DSDs competing in women's sports Glorianny offers up a plethora of other problems that should be sorted out before that's considered. Women's needs always, but always take relegation behind men's wants.

I raise what are real problems which a simplistic attitude ignores. Like the problems of black women raised as women in countries with less developed health systems who are then banned from competing and told they are men. Something you find acceptable but the majority of black people do not.
Or the transman in the US forced to compete in a female sport because his state designates your classification by your birth sex. Apparently he just shouldn't compete.
Why do you pretend to have all the answers? Is it possibly because your simplistic attitude ignores a huge number of concerns which you are actually afraid to look at, never mind answer?

Much of Scotland and their dog will be reporting hate crimes from now on. If women had been included there would have been even more but women obviously don't suffer from hate crimes according to this bill.

I’m not convinced you raise real problems which simplistic attitude ignores
It seems to me you go out of your way to split hairs in an attempt to appear to know more than everyone else. To be the most aware, kind, knowledgable person whose purpose in life is to educate the barbarians

Here we go again. Insults (we are ‘simplistic’), ✅ irrelevant parallels about black women in sport (another fixation of yours) which imply that we are racist, ✅, being told what we think (‘you find acceptable’)✅, speaking for the majority of black people✅, we pretend to have all the answers (the irony!!)✅, we are afraid to address concerns (more irony), and the ultimate in projection - we don’t answer your questions ✅

BINGO!

RosiesMaw

Today I read this
POLICE SCOTLAND has been forced to pay control room staff overtime as the deluge of complaints under Humza Yousaf’s hate crime laws exceeded 6,000, it has been claimed.
David Kennedy, the general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation (SPF), said that he expected the force’s bill to the taxpayer for overtime and other costs to total “hundreds of thousands” of pounds.
Insiders believe that the force has now received more than 6,000 complaints since the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act came into force on Monday. Police Scotland has said it is collating the figures.
Mr Yousaf admitted he was “very, very concerned” by the number of “vexatious” complaints being lodged under the new law but claimed he was not surprised
This is despite him telling Sky News on Monday there was “absolutely no evidence” to support warnings that there would be a large increase in the number of vexatious hate complaints.
What was he thinking of?

So what you are in fact saying is that some people are trying to make the law unworkable and therefore it is a bad or unnecessary law.
There were 421,861 reported burglaries in England in 2018-19
There were only 4,700 convictions for burglary in 2019.
Unless those people were managing over 100 a year
that legislation plainly isn't working should we get rid of it?

Do give it a rest Glorianny. I suspect you’re well aware the vast majority of posters are well aware years of neglect and unnecessary austerity has wrecked our criminal justice system, including leaving forces unable to investigate most crimes effectively. Waiting 5 years for a rape a charge to get into court is obscene.
There’s something about priorities here

Doodledog

Here we go again. Insults (we are ‘simplistic’), ✅ irrelevant parallels about black women in sport (another fixation of yours) which imply that we are racist, ✅, being told what we think (‘you find acceptable’)✅, speaking for the majority of black people✅, we pretend to have all the answers (the irony!!)✅, we are afraid to address concerns (more irony), and the ultimate in projection - we don’t answer your questions ✅

BINGO!

If you ignore the complaints of black women (and I have linked to these many times) you must deal with your conscience why you do so.
If you ignore the existence of transmen because they complicate things you are simply afraid to address the issues.

I don't tell you what to think.
I don't abuse any of you
I don't accuse you of anything although many of you accuse me of many things.
I simply ask you questions which you either can't or don't want to answer. If you don't answer my questions you are under no obligation to do so, but the questions remain.

There have been more hate crime reports against Scotland’s first minister than JKR and the others put together…

Iam64

Do give it a rest Glorianny. I suspect you’re well aware the vast majority of posters are well aware years of neglect and unnecessary austerity has wrecked our criminal justice system, including leaving forces unable to investigate most crimes effectively. Waiting 5 years for a rape a charge to get into court is obscene.
There’s something about priorities here

Give what a rest Iam64 questioning entrenched and frankly ridiculous beliefs like "I can tell a transperson".or "Only natal women matter"?
Sorry but it is important.
It matters that people are abused because they are different. It doesn't matter to me if that difference is their race, their religion, their disability or the fact that they are transgender, the reason for the abuse is irrelevant.
And a law on misogyny matters to me as well. I don't think we will get one, but it has been interesting to see how many people with entrenched views on trans issues would not even discuss a hypothetical law because it creates problems for their perceptions.
And all these discussions ever do is reinforce my belief that discrimination is always wrong, no matter what grounds for it the proposer espouses.

Yes it is discrimination that concerns me, it's why gender ideology concerns me, the sexism and homophobia has always worried me.

If your question is about African women in sport, we have answered many many times, as we have answered all your other attempts to derail threads by dragging in irrelevant diversions. Start threads about butch women or people with DSDs, and those with knowledge of those things will reply, I’m sure.

Those who don’t have such knowledge, however, are not going to go down blind alleys to be met with a Gotcha! at the end for getting a question about the cellular differences between a gamete and a chromosome wrong, or for not knowing the finer points of Caster Semenya’s medical records. Honestly - you drag that poor woman into so many threads that my autocorrect recognises her name! We are discussing the Scottish legislation, and the plight of African sprinters has no bearing on its impact. Suggesting that biological realists are racist is irritating and the ultimate in personal insult, as are so many of your comments, which always get increasingly nasty as threads go on and your arguments are shown to be hollow. The flounce is usually next . . .

I definitely have entrenched views when it comes to men(TW) in women’s sports they should not be allowed in any way shape or form.

I have nothing against Transgender people per se everyone is entitled to dress and act as they wish.

But, the assumption that a man can put on a dress and call themselves a women is an out and out lie They may be living a life that they imagine women do, but they are men and always will be, their sex is in every chromosome and cell of their body…

Galaxy

Yes it is discrimination that concerns me, it's why gender ideology concerns me, the sexism and homophobia has always worried me.

So explain quite how designating people by their birth sex is going to help matters Galaxy because I have yet to see anything logical or sensible in anything said so far.
It's all -"You can tell a transperson"-No you can't!
"Transwomen should use men's facilities"- and therefore transmen womens'?
"Natal women matter" but how do you know anyone's birth sex?
Oh and "Women's spaces need protection"- which they already have.

I dont pretend that we are unable to distinguish between the sex of people, that's part of a religion I dont believe in.
If you want to pretend that ,you are of course free to do so. I am not going to join you.

Glorianny

Galaxy

Yes it is discrimination that concerns me, it's why gender ideology concerns me, the sexism and homophobia has always worried me.

So explain quite how designating people by their birth sex is going to help matters Galaxy because I have yet to see anything logical or sensible in anything said so far.
It's all -"You can tell a transperson"-No you can't!
"Transwomen should use men's facilities"- and therefore transmen womens'?
"Natal women matter" but how do you know anyone's birth sex?
Oh and "Women's spaces need protection"- which they already have.

Actually Glorianny unless the man identifying as a women has had their Adam’s Apple shaved it is relatively easy to spot them.

Oh and if womens spaces are protected but its impossible to identify sex, then those spaces are meaningless. Say Boris Johnson wants to access a womans changing room, how are we supposed to decide if he can, after all we cant know what sex he is.

Actually Glorianny unless the man identifying as a women has had their Adam’s Apple shaved it is relatively easy to spot them
Prominent genitals are also a giveaway even if the leggings are pink!.

RosiesMaw

^Actually Glorianny unless the man identifying as a women has had their Adam’s Apple shaved it is relatively easy to spot them^
Prominent genitals are also a giveaway even if the leggings are pink!.

👏👏👏

Glorianny, what you’re saying in all your different twisting, is that men, whether or not they are TIM, have the right to do whatever they want, even when its detrimental to females, and women don’t.

Fortunately, there are females who do care and will continue to work on that.

If you and others choose to support misogynistic males, under the guise of supporting TIM, it’s sad. You could equally put all your efforts into showing those TIM who choose to cheat, lie and offer violence to females AND damage the image of TIM, that what they are doing is wrong (I presume you do think cheating, lying and violence of any kind is wrong).
Except that, like the Humza Yousef, there is the fear that it’s impossible-so better not to try.