Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

I know, but where there's life there's hope.

Doodledog you have as much chance of getting answers from Glorianny as I have which is precisely zero…

Posts, not pets

This is the first time I have mentioned subcultures, so I don't know on what your hypothesis is based, unless you have a database of people's pets for the purpose of cross reference?

I don't 'realise' that there is a flaw in my arguments. I see them as perfectly valid. Please stop telling me what I think, and what my motives are?

While you're here, would you please answer some of the questions in my post upthread? Or are you ignoring them because you realise that your arguments have no basis whatsoever?

Doodledog

*However, you wouldn't succeed in getting your employer to address you as "My Lord" or "My Lady" or have them charged with a hate crime if they failed to do so.*
Very true. There are, AFAIK, no other areas where people can simply 'identify' themselves into social groups to which they do not belong. There are loose subcultural groups that are about 'presentation', so it is possible to 'become' a goth, or a punk, or the modern equivalent by wearing the right clothes, listening to particular music and so on, but otherwise there are barriers of qualifications or ethnicity or until recently, sex.

The implication that being a women is on the same level as being a goth, but you have to have passed examinations to call yourself a doctor or a bus driver or a plumber is insulting.

I think you are the only person who widens this out to include sub-cultural groups perhaps because you realise there is a real flaw in the arguments you present against trans identities.

It is quite simple. If someone in a work place says they are Mr X and asks to be addressed as "he" you have no right to question that identity. You address him as he asks. He may be a birth man, he may be a transman. He is a man. Anything else is his personal business.

I await this being now replied to with comments about transwomen. The same view applies. Because quite honestly how many colleagues have ever proved their sex to you?

A minor by definition of 'minor' does not have the right to full personhood but must for some decisions do as she is told by those adults who for good reason have authority over her actions.

Many adults have such hazy ideas about gender that they need to be ordered to learn about why they feel they should be another sex or another gender. It would be wrong for a doctor to prescribe sex changing hormones simply because the child or the adult requested hormone treatment.

However a child can be allowed to wear unconventional apparel when doing so will not harm her or his prospects.

Kids often dress up for fun, but life is not about play it's mostly about work. They need to know how they should present themself for a specified job interview e.g. as a teacher or as a scaffolding erector, and so forth.

It's fashionable and misleading to believe we should be permitted to express ourselves on all occasions.

A law against 'hate speech' is necessary to protect people from verbal abuse who may already be suffering a crisis of self identity and loneliness.

However, you wouldn't succeed in getting your employer to address you as "My Lord" or "My Lady" or have them charged with a hate crime if they failed to do so.
Very true. There are, AFAIK, no other areas where people can simply 'identify' themselves into social groups to which they do not belong. There are loose subcultural groups that are about 'presentation', so it is possible to 'become' a goth, or a punk, or the modern equivalent by wearing the right clothes, listening to particular music and so on, but otherwise there are barriers of qualifications or ethnicity or until recently, sex.

The implication that being a women is on the same level as being a goth, but you have to have passed examinations to call yourself a doctor or a bus driver or a plumber is insulting.

It is possible for a comparatively small sum to buy a patch of land and the right to call yourself a Lord or a Lady. This is one of many websites - www.lordtitles.co.uk/ where for £25 or so you can become Lord John Smith or Lady Mary Brown (or your choice) "Each title pack includes a gold-embossed, personalised title certificate and a legal deed, confirming the new status. Plus five square feet of dedicated land, welcome letter, title crest postcard, colour brochure and presentation folder."

However, you wouldn't succeed in getting your employer to address you as "My Lord" or "My Lady" or have them charged with a hate crime if they failed to do so.

Wheniwasyourage

To be clear, the new law in Scotland specifically does not remove the ability to cause offence, just aims to prevent ‘stirring up hatred’ whatever that means.

But if one group demands that another to be complicit in their lie, that in itself has potential for stirring up hatred.

Elegran

I'd be interested to hear how India Willoughby changed her genes so that she now "tests genetically as female" Any geneticists out there who can expand on that? I know some kinds of gene therapy are available for some conditions, but I didn't think sex change was one of them.

Changing sex is still as impossible as it always was, but for some trans identified people lies become truth if you say it often enough. The whole scenario is reminiscent of Tinkerbell, if we all clap hard enough........

I'd be interested to hear how India Willoughby changed her genes so that she now "tests genetically as female" Any geneticists out there who can expand on that? I know some kinds of gene therapy are available for some conditions, but I didn't think sex change was one of them.

To be clear, the new law in Scotland specifically does not remove the ability to cause offence, just aims to prevent ‘stirring up hatred’ whatever that means.

Which is part of the reason many posts back, when I brought up your comment, of oh just say so and so, it is merely words.

^ I'd support your right to be called a mother just as I would support a transman's right to be called a birth giver.
I don't understand why anyone would object to another person being treated with respect.^

Because to treat the other person with respect in the way you are talking about, it means that some or many would have to lie.

Lying is a sin.
Quite a bad one, as I understand it from the Bible.

People can still treat the person with respect, while not lying.
But can they now, in Scotland, with the new law?

Rosie51

I'm willing to admit that personal experience has likely affected my views, I wonder if Glorianny has the same honesty, or if she wants to persist with her "holier than thou" stance

I am sick of asking that too, as well as the following questions that are also ignored. I would have some respect for Glorianny’s views if she even attempted to answer, but it’s as though the numerous posts asking just don’t show up on her screen:
* What does ‘living as a woman’ mean in 2024?
* How can someone know that they are ‘the wrong gender’ when they can’t have been anything other than the sex they were born? A bonus - what is the difference between the wrong gender and the wrong sex?
* What is the difference between a man in a dress (say an actor), a man in drag (a female impersonator) and a transwoman? I understand the definitions, but what is the material difference?
* Are there any circumstances where you ( Glorianny ) would allow your fellow women to chose to be surrounded only by other women, or would you always defer to males and allow them to take that choice from us?
* Are there any other situations in which you ( Glorianny ) would allow people to change their legal position simply by saying that they ‘identify’ into a different social group?

* Finally - are you genuinely unable to grasp that when it comes to language the objections of feminists to words being mangled is not to deny a tiny number of transmen in maternity wards anything, but to prevent the misrepresentation of women and our experiences, in conversation, statistics, policies and in the conceptual awareness that has shaped our sense of self for millennia?

Interesting that the GIDs clinic is being closed after failing to properly assess the psychological needs of patients

The behaviour of some transactivists says a psychological or psychiatric assessment would be interesting

I knew a transman once Grannygravy and s/he was extremely discreet and never drew any attention to him/herself. Just worked away efficiently and quietly.

I didn’t sleep well last night and was pondering this thread when it suddenly dawned on me that whilst we see men who identify as women using social media platforms and invading women only events boasting about their girl dicks whilst wearing revealingly tight clothes with their male genitalia in full prominence.

I have never seen a woman who identifies as a man wearing tight clothes revealing their camel toe whilst boasting about their guy vagina anywhere.

In my opinion this can only be because they respect the gender which they wish to identify as. They wish to blend in and live alongside men, not dominate and make demands.

See the difference…

Glorianny
^I'd have a lot more respect for your views
though if you could just sort out your problem with transmen and the requests you ignore.^

What problem with transmen?

The problem with TIM relates only to those TIM whose lying, cheating and threats affect or harm females and whose actions reflect badly on other TIM.

Respect from someone who constantly ignores the actions of those TIM and makes sweeping, inaccurate statements about how others feel about all trans, is not high on my wish list.

I'd have a lot more respect for your views though if you could admit the truth about the section of TIM to which I refer and answer the requests you ignore.

^

I'm willing to admit that personal experience has likely affected my views, I wonder if Glorianny has the same honesty, or if she wants to persist with her "holier than thou" stance

Still waiting for what Legal rights transpeople don't enjoy that others do. Is that "The Sound of Silence" I hear?

Exactly Mollygo. When you know you'll get a private hospital room, aren't a criminal so prison doesn't feature, have supportive family so a women's refuge isn't on the horizon it's easy to be so "inclusive" I've never been in the position of having to claim benefits, the only benefit I've been paid was the automatic family allowance. I can sympathise, from a safe distance, with those who have had to endure the ignominy of laying their lives bare to secure funds for a mere existence, but I can't claim to know what that's like.

Rosie51
Those women that happily throw other women under the bus should be ashamed of themselves. It's easy not to be concerned about males in refuges, prisons etc when you know (or think) darned well you'll never be in that position.
Well put.

Of course one is not born a woman, one is born a female baby and through life's progression and experiences, that female baby becomes a woman Simone de Beauvoir never once said men become women by uttering magic words! How can someone who enjoyed all the privileges of being male in a patriarchy have a glimmer of what it is to be female? I can't know, as a white woman, what it's like to face the prejudice a black woman may encounter. Or perhaps you, also a white woman (I believe) think you can tell a black woman exactly what that's like? I know you like to speak for black women. My DiL (a mixed race woman) doesn't appreciate your patronising attitude, but she's probably the wrong type of black woman according to you.

I'd have a lot more respect for your views though if you could just sort out your problem with transmen and the requests you ignore. Sorry, what requests have I ignored? Perhaps you could list them? I might be able to respect your views, and your previous incarnation, if you admitted there are no legal rights denied to transpeople that everyone else has. You won't address this, preferring to divert and DARVO.

I've never oppressed a single soul in my life. I don't want to make women frightened to express a view because the trans lobby will have them cancelled. I've never told a rape victim she needs to reframe her trauma. I've never placed a man's wants over a woman's needs. Shame you can't say the same. You do you, a woman who needs to be applauded by men in whatever guise. I'm happy being a woman who loves men, and stands by other women.

Rosie51

Glorianny No rant from me. It would be good if your self proclaimed integrity extended to admitting there are no legal rights denied to transpeople that everyone else has. I assume you didn't miss that part of my post so the absence of denial confirms its validity. This whole "trans rights" furore is just manufactured outrage.

I don't think I've ever said this is solely a male issue, I do wish you wouldn't lie, even if just by implication. I'm sure everybody sees through your inaccurate posts. I consider this to be an issue that affects mostly women, but I stand by Simone de Beauvoir's words:
The oppressor would not be so strong if he did not have accomplices amongst the oppressed

Those women that happily throw other women under the bus should be ashamed of themselves. It's easy not to be concerned about males in refuges, prisons etc when you know (or think) darned well you'll never be in that position.

I'm not going through the old scenarios again Rosie51 read the old threads if you want to.
Just look at how you speak to me. The things you accuse me of I have never said. How most of the posts to me tell me what I think and what I say and how awful I am.
You may think what you wish.
I'd have a lot more respect for your views though if you could just sort out your problem with transmen and the requests you ignore.
Simone De Beauvoir also said
One is not born, but becomes a woman
Which is actually the basis for a lot of gender studies. She denies that biology makes women weaker and says it is society. I'm with Simone.
I don't want to oppress anyone. I don't want anyone to be oppressed. Can you say the same?