Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Glorianny

Still waiting for a clear explanation of the poem I don't understand

No-one has come for the trans people to herd them all into prisons and death camps. They have legal rights to exist, to look, act and think as they wish.

It is those who want safeguards to be in place who are in danger of being ignored - those who want places for vulnerable women that are safe from the men they have previously been threatened or attacked by, those who don't want people whose male physiques were honed by testosterone but who choose to compete against women, those who want to be able to use the "ladies' room" as a refuge where they can let their hair down without men with intact sexual equipment standing around watching them, and others who feel that women have had thousands of years defending themselves against a male-focussed hierarchy and they had hoped that in this "civilised" age that had at last reached a point where they no longer had to be eternally vigilant.

But it seems that "speaking truth to power" is still needed, and is still dangerous.

Katek

Oh believe me,glorianny our family understands this poem only too well, so please don't make smart remarks when you have no idea of my background/history. If we do not speak out against that which we know to be wrong we lose the right to complain about possible consequences. There has to be a point for everyone when one has to say enough is enough. If you cannot see the correlation between the past and present then the lessons of history have not been learned.

Sorry it isn't about that at all. It's about not supporting people's right to speak out regardless of if you agree with them or not. The lesson of history is in the people who went first to the camps, who were the communists, the trans and gay communities and the disabled. At least one of those groups you would not speak out for.
Martin Neimoller was anti-communist, anti-socialist and an antisemite until he was arrested. The poem is about supporting the rights of others regardless of if you agree with them.

Smileless2012

I find it hard to believe that anyone would have complained about seeing other women's 'bits' in a women's communal changing and shower area Glorianny and if they did, that those notices would have been installed.

Why not? I prefer not to see anyone's bits. If someone else feels strongly about it I can understand them complaining. Maybe it was a mum who didn't want a child to see. This was over 10 years ago so highly unlikely to be trans influenced. I wonder why you see that as the only reason?

"of course you can't always identify a transwoman"

Lol of course you can, often at multiple yards away. The belief of transwomen that they are "stealth" and "no one knows" is a delusion based on the courtesy of other people respecting their pronouns, new names, and in all ways respecting this female identity they have chosen.

It's not because other people can't tell. Everyone can tell. If you are familiar with trans spaces online, they are full every day of people upset because they were "misgendered by a child". Small children don't yet understand the convention by which adults don't say "Hey, look, there's a man in a dress", so they just say out loud what they see. Which is... a man, in a dress.

They aren't committing a hate crime. The polite fiction that a transwoman "passes" is exactly that, a polite fiction.

The Scottish law can’t be the same as in England because the Scots govt doesn’t even seem to know its own law. Laughable if it wasn’t so serious.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68746512

Oh believe me,glorianny our family understands this poem only too well, so please don't make smart remarks when you have no idea of my background/history. If we do not speak out against that which we know to be wrong we lose the right to complain about possible consequences. There has to be a point for everyone when one has to say enough is enough. If you cannot see the correlation between the past and present then the lessons of history have not been learned.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would have complained about seeing other women's 'bits' in a women's communal changing and shower area Glorianny and if they did, that those notices would have been installed.

Glorianny

It's actually about standing up for people even if you don't agree with their views or their lifestyle. Which makes posting it on this thread ironic to say the least.
I would support your right to think as you do no matter how wrong I think you are.
The tragedy is you wouldn't support transpeople.

There you go again Glorianny, with your sweeping statements.
Nobody on these threads has ever said they do not support trans people.

What they do not support is the erosion of women’s rights to female spaces without males, sporting competitions free from males cheating to enter, female hospital wards, especially female mental health wards free from males, the violence offered to females by some TIM and the demand that others lie to support the demands of TIM.
You’ve demonstrated that you are happy to lie that TIM are not male and that you disapprove of those who won’t lie, but you really shouldn’t make broad sweeping untrue statements like the end of your post above, unless it’s a case of lying about anything is OK.

Just checking on what you mean by this part of your post above?
^ I would support your right to think as you do no matter how wrong I think you are.^

What on earth does that mean?
How would you support anyone’s right to think it’s OK to rob, steal, murder, even though you know it’s wrong? How does that work?

Smileless2012

I shouldn't have to protest. If I go swimming, I shouldn't have to keep my swimsuit on when I shower afterwards in case there's an intact trans woman there, because they shouldn't be there.

It seems as if those of us who argue against this do have to accept things because when we don't, we are accused of not supporting trans people.

As far as I know the ruling had nothing to do with transwomen. Some people don't want to see anyone's bits.

Still waiting for a clear explanation of the poem I don't understand

I shouldn't have to protest. If I go swimming, I shouldn't have to keep my swimsuit on when I shower afterwards in case there's an intact trans woman there, because they shouldn't be there.

It seems as if those of us who argue against this do have to accept things because when we don't, we are accused of not supporting trans people.

The tragedy is you wouldn't support transpeople. rather depends what the transpeople are doing doesn't it, or do you support them whatever? I support equal rights for transpeople which is what they have, unless you can point to a right I enjoy that a transperson doesn't? I've asked so many times if someone can tell me specific rights denied only to transpeople and reply comes there none. I don't support transpeople having additional rights, especially if those rights disadvantage women. I also don't support cheats, thieves, rapists, murderers, child molesters etc no matter what sex they are.

If we are going to stick to facts, the blatantly obvious one which Glorianny repeatedly ignores is

there is no such thing as a girl-dick

Aggressive men who choose to identify as women seem extraordinarily proud of their girl dick These men are misogynists, they enjoy getting off on belittling women, with the enablement of so called intersectional feminists.

Smileless2012

It wasn't the pink leggings that gave him away Gorianny, it was his male genitalia, there for all to see.

I've never claimed that I can always identify trans women. I knew the two that I know are before I got to know them, and I know that others I've seen where we live are too, but that's not the issue.

I do not believe it is right for intact males to access spaces and facilities designated for women, whether or not I can tell they are trans, and if they have any respect and/or concern for women, I don't know why they would insist on doing so.

If there are insufficient gender neutral spaces and facilities available that is something the trans community needs to address. It is not the sole responsibility of women to do this and it is not right that women should have to accept them in their changing rooms, toilets etc because there's nothing else available.

If you go somewhere where you don't like the facilities then protest. Someone had plainly done that in the swimming baths I used to use. There were notices asking women not to remove their swimsuits whilst showering. I have no idea why but obviously someone had complained.
No one has to accept things everyone has a voice.

It's actually about standing up for people even if you don't agree with their views or their lifestyle. Which makes posting it on this thread ironic to say the least.
I would support your right to think as you do no matter how wrong I think you are.
The tragedy is you wouldn't support transpeople.

It wasn't the pink leggings that gave him away Gorianny, it was his male genitalia, there for all to see.

I've never claimed that I can always identify trans women. I knew the two that I know are before I got to know them, and I know that others I've seen where we live are too, but that's not the issue.

I do not believe it is right for intact males to access spaces and facilities designated for women, whether or not I can tell they are trans, and if they have any respect and/or concern for women, I don't know why they would insist on doing so.

If there are insufficient gender neutral spaces and facilities available that is something the trans community needs to address. It is not the sole responsibility of women to do this and it is not right that women should have to accept them in their changing rooms, toilets etc because there's nothing else available.

Doodledog

*Good grief - you don’t even understand the poem*

Very obviously 😂😂

So explain it *Doodledog I'nm always willing to listen.
I'll give you my view.
It's written by a man who stood by and witnessed the Communists and socialists being arrested and ignored it.
He watched the Jews being imprisoned and ignored it.
At the time he disliked those people.
He was sent to a concentration camp. When he was released he realigned his views.
It is about how minorities are and were treated by Nazis.
You may not know the transgender history.
But by all means give me your explanation.

Good grief - you don’t even understand the poem

Very obviously 😂😂

Glorianny

RosiesMaw

Glorianny

Katek

I'm with JKR all the way. We have seen the extreme outcome of remaining silent.

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Where do you see transpeople in that poem?
You plainly have no idea of their history.
The first transgender clinic was in Berlin in the 1930s. Those people were amongst the first sent to camps. Nazis hate transpeople.

Good grief - you don’t even understand the poem

Of course I understand it. It is about minorities. It is about the Nazi clearance of Germany. If you don't know the history then you don't understand it. The Communists were the first to be sent along with the deviants (transgender, gays, promiscuous individuals) and children with disabilities.
It's about how Nazi regimes operate.

It's also an expression of regret from a man who was an anti-semite but changed his mind after his imprisonment
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller#Role_in_Nazi_Germany

(Which brings me back to the leggings)

*The idea was introduced when we were discussing if transwomen are easily identifiable that's the point. The implication is there. Can you identify a transwoman? - Here's one in pink leggings (oh they're a sex offender)
It's simply because the argument is unsupportable of course you can't always identify a transwoman, and trying to do so will be harmful to all women. But that means admitting something doesn't it?*
Oh, in the name of all that's Holy! That is not what happened. I didn't want to get embroiled in Legginggate, but the pink leggings were mentioned as they became iconic in the Isla Bryson case - he wore them deliberately to show his maleness at a time when he seemed to think he would be housed in a women's prison after raping women with the very penis he was displaying in an outfit that parodied women. That the case was in Scotland and embarrassing for the SNP after Nicola Sturgeon's stumbling answers when asked to justify putting male rapists in women's jails made it relevant to a thread about Scottish legislation on so-called 'gender'.

Nobody said that all transwomen wore pink leggings. Nobody said that all transwomen are sex offenders, that you can identify transwomen because of their attire, or that wearers of pink leggings are likely to be sex offenders. If you really think they did, you should maybe read the thread, or brush up on your comprehension skills.

Many people on here are saying that they can identify transwomen when we see them. You disagree, which is clearly a minority view. Can you not even consider the possibility that you might just possibly be wrong? There is no need to put words into people's mouths, attack them by suggesting that they are lying and/or transphobic. They simply disagree with you, and others do too.

Can you identify a transwoman?
Hmm
Maybe somebody claiming to be a woman with clearly visible male genitalia?
As opposed to a corseted transvestite or drag artiste - as Danny La Rue claimed in his autobiography “ Every Other Inch A Woman”:

RosiesMaw

Glorianny

Katek

I'm with JKR all the way. We have seen the extreme outcome of remaining silent.

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Where do you see transpeople in that poem?
You plainly have no idea of their history.
The first transgender clinic was in Berlin in the 1930s. Those people were amongst the first sent to camps. Nazis hate transpeople.

Good grief - you don’t even understand the poem

Of course I understand it. It is about minorities. It is about the Nazi clearance of Germany. If you don't know the history then you don't understand it. The Communists were the first to be sent along with the deviants (transgender, gays, promiscuous individuals) and children with disabilities.
It's about how Nazi regimes operate.

🤣🤣🤣