Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Rosie51

^Pink leggings! Honestly!!?^

Why can't you be straightforward and honest Glorianny? I didn't make that post but I'm sure it is a reference to Isla Blair the transwoman, initially sent to a female prison, who appeared outside court dressed in tight pink leggings that clearly revealed a penis and testicles. I'm sure even you could correctly sex that body?

I agree entirely with your sentiments, but get your Islas right!
We don’t want a libel case originating on GN!

This is the picture - of convicted double rapist Isla Bryson who “found her true authentic female self” shortly before she was due to be sentenced.
My comment about the genitals and pink leggings (not mentioning the pink handbag and false nails) was far from being unconscious prejudice It was entirely conscious reflecting my contempt for a sex offender who blatantly exploited a flawed system, metaphorically sticking two fingers up at it.

Well said Suzanne Moore 👏👏👏

To return to JKR, Suzanne Moore (who left the Graun because of their treatment of biological realists) has this to say of her:
People are always asking me why she does what she does because she could just have a nice life.

I think of the Joan Didion line: “In brief, people with self-respect exhibit a certain toughness, a kind of moral nerve; they display what was once called character…

When I say she is a feminist to her core, they look bemused. It is as if no one believes anything enough to do anything that would actually cost them, except perhaps the few deluded soup splatterers.

Her nice life though, is one that now involves seriously horrible threats to her, her family and endless abuse.

The Jo I know has ovaries of steel and a brilliant, biting wit and that is what we have seen over the last week.

To be honest, I think she is a bit disappointed not to be arrested. A lot of people would have happily joined her. I am not sure if Scotland has a big enough prison to put all the women in who will not call rapists “She”, who will not deny biology, who are sick of being harassed for not thinking that the sterilisation of gay children is a good idea.

We think these things not out of any hatred of trans people but because we want to protect vulnerable women and give children time to decide who they want to be. We don’t want to lie to them about changing sex, when it is gruelling and actually not possible.

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

RosiesMaw

Actually Glorianny unless the man identifying as a women has had their Adam’s Apple shaved it is relatively easy to spot them
Prominent genitals are also a giveaway even if the leggings are pink!.

👏👏👏

Original post by RosieMaw approved of by many including GG13 Calistemon21 Jennifer Eccles and Mollygo
I made a joke of it,
That was wrong the prejudice exhibited is deeply concerning and apparently unconscious.

Not unconscious.
I'll admit to prejudice:
Why anyone unless extremely young, slim and female would want to wear tight leggings with no top is beyond me.

In fact, why anyone would wear them without a long top is beyond me.

I'm sorry if you find thst concerning, perhaps it's your normal attire, Glorianny.

Smileless2012

No one's applied the photographs to a whole section of society Glorianny.

Glorianny just did.

Oh well, applying logic and premises and all that-

From a premise that says "Prominent genitals are also a giveaway even if the leggings are pink!." it is NOT logical to extract that what is being implied is "This is a person who wears pink leggings. Therefore all people who wear pink leggings are like this"

You can deduce only that people who wear pink leggings and have prominent genitals are not guaranteed to be able to conceal those prominent genitals underneath them,

You can't even deduce that all people who wear pink leggings are trying to conceal their genitals and the sex of them, though you may surmise as a possibility that given the revealing character of the fabric that most leggings are made of and their figure-hugging cut, it is likely that the wearer is NOT trying to conceal either that there are genitals under there or what sex they are.

You can't deduce the sex of the genitals from reading that premise alone, but if you saw the leggings in actuality (in the flesh, as it were) the stretchy pink fabric could be revealing the shape of either meat and two veg or of a camel toe, so you could make a pretty good guess. You might even make another guess that the wearer could be making a statement about their physical sexuality.

A man making such a bold statement about his sexuality is quite often doing so to either impress or intimidate females. Those who are not favourably impressed may very well feel fear instead.

VioletSky

Oh I have shared my views on how to do that many many times

Unfortunately I was told that it's not up to women to resolve these issues and they shouldn't have to come up with solutions that protect everyone's rights so I gave up

Unfortunately I was told that it's not up to women to resolve these issues and they shouldn't have to come up with solutions that protect everyone's rights so I gave up.

Realistically VS - what do you expect women to actually do?

Starting from the premise that everyone is entitled to live a life free from abuse, assault and violence - which I believe those of us who are debating on here subscribe to; that no-one should be pilloried for being different; that everyone should have the human rights often talked about - everyone... even the shouty, aggressive TWAs should have those same human rights.

What are we - us women who have a belief - which is as valid as yours - to do?

Putting it in simple terms, for the sake of argument - we do not believe nor accept that a man with male chromosomes commonly known as the X and Y, can change himself into a woman. You have said that it shouldn't matter what is in one's pants, and to a degree you are right - some TW have had full genital construction surgery although I believe - the data is very difficult to quantify with any real accuracy - only a small proportion of TW go on to have such surgery (understandable when such surgery is expensive if paying privately, and difficult to get on the NHS, and pretty drastic either way).

So the majority of TW self-identify as women which means that what is in their pants is a penis. Even that doesn't matter so much as the fact that with or without a penis - their chromosomes are and will remain, male.

Where it does matter what is in their pants has been discussed endlessly on here, so I'm not going to bang on about it.

So it is men who are demanding that the status be turned on its head, and that women accept that if they say, or identity as women - we have to accept that they are in fact, women. And if we want to debate the matter - we do, after all, have a stake in this - we are labelled transphobic and nasty (by those like yourself) because we won't overturn what is scientifically understood about biology to accommodate those minority of men.

Can you not see the challenge? Can you not see that a problem which has not been created by women - a problem created by a minority of men - is presented to us as ours to solve? Basically and bluntly we are being told that transwomen should have the right to use our public toilets, changing rooms, and other private spaces - because they feel like women, and if we object that it's up to us to deal with the problem and work out how these men identifying as women can be accommodated.

This is a 'story' as old as the hills. Women being expected to accommodate men; their foibles, their weaknesses, their insecurities, fears, feelings. To some extent, feminism put a stop to this, but, we are still expected to "understand".

Why is this our problem - and again, what do you think women should do to protect "everyone's" rights - other than to fall silent, say OK, and shut-up?

Does every poster have to preface every post with "Of course this only applies to the small proportion of transpeople but there is a very vocal minority who give all the others a bad name by . . .(whatever)" for it to be obvious to the keyboard warriors among us that this is implied often enough for regular posters to mentally apply it? Speaking only for myself, I do try to put that kind of disclaimer into my posts, but it does get tedious to have to repeat myself all the time.

Of course, it would then only be fair for the keyboard warriors to preface every one of their posts with a similar introduction. Perhaps their doing so and reading it in other posts would dampen down their umbrella accusations of hating all transpeople a bit. Perhaps not.

I am not prejudiced towards trans identifying men.

I am totally against a man calling himself a women flouting his girl dick and demanding access to women only places.

The former live their lives without the intention of pushing their beliefs/agendas onto others. The second only want to push their beliefs/agendas with total disregard for women.

If you are unable to see the difference then it’s your problem not mine.

I see you've preempted me Glorianny but that post doesn't say what you claimed in your post @ 19.45 does it.

I can't find a post that says transwomen are easily identifiable because they wear pink leggings that display their genitalia Glorianny, can you provide the name of the poster, date and time please?

GrannyGravy13

RosiesMaw

Actually Glorianny unless the man identifying as a women has had their Adam’s Apple shaved it is relatively easy to spot them
Prominent genitals are also a giveaway even if the leggings are pink!.

👏👏👏

Original post by RosieMaw approved of by many including GG13 Calistemon21 Jennifer Eccles and Mollygo
I made a joke of it,
That was wrong the prejudice exhibited is deeply concerning and apparently unconscious.

Smileless2012

No one's applied the photographs to a whole section of society Glorianny.

Sorry Smileless2012 when I'm told that transwomen are easily identifiable because they wear tight pink leggings that display their genitalia What else are they doing?
It really is prejudice. It really is unacceptable.
It's based on the same premise that all discrimination is. This is a person who is X. Therefore all people who are X are like this. Therefore we need to fear them.

No one's applied the photographs to a whole section of society Glorianny.

That seems to be the problem. You evidently don't understand the basis of discrimination and prejudice. But to help you , when you take one image consider that image negative in some way, and then apply those negative opinions to a whole section of society, that is prejudice, that is the basis of discrimination. You have in fact just proved what I have always said. Your views are not harmless they are damaging.
Evidently you imagine I should in some way apologise because you have one photograph of one person. I don't need to . I knew what you were talking about. I simply consider your prejudice unacceptable.

Pink leggings! Honestly!!?

Don't apologise, GrannyGravy13 It made sense as it stood. I was already tempted to make some connection between camel toes and spare socks, but I managed to resist it.

Thank you for the definition. I suppose the male variation could be called a spare pair of socks?

a should read at apologies for typo

Elegran

I can't find who besides Glorianny referred to pink leggings. Can anyone direct me?

Genitalia DO show up under stretchy leggings/trousers, BTW, just as a tight sweater has been proved by many women to accentuate their mammary glands or their labia (there is a word for the latter effect, but I can't think of it offhand.)

Totally agree however it does beg the question why a man demanding to be identified as a woman would wear tight leggings revealing his girl dick other than to stick two fingers up a women.

Rosie51

^Genitalia DO show up under stretchy leggings/trousers, BTW, just as a tight sweater has been proved by many women to accentuate their mammary glands or their labia (there is a word for the latter effect, but I can't think of it offhand.)^

Camel toe.

Getting a camel tattooed on a toe is very popular. Especially when on holiday abroad when slightly inebriated

Genitalia DO show up under stretchy leggings/trousers, BTW, just as a tight sweater has been proved by many women to accentuate their mammary glands or their labia (there is a word for the latter effect, but I can't think of it offhand.)

Camel toe.

Oops I hadn't refreshed the page, sorry.

Pink leggings! Honestly!!?

Why can't you be straightforward and honest Glorianny? I didn't make that post but I'm sure it is a reference to Isla Blair the transwoman, initially sent to a female prison, who appeared outside court dressed in tight pink leggings that clearly revealed a penis and testicles. I'm sure even you could correctly sex that body?