Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

I would like someone to answer my question about vetting/dbs and change of gender/name as I think it’s important

I treat transgender people the same as I treat everyone else. I don’t need to be gas lamped (sorry I’ve been watching Mandy)

I support JKR absolutely ...

I haven't managed to read all 8 pages (have only today had a notification about the post?) but where I live a teacher has been sacked over all this.

The young person a girl biologically, announced that henceforth she would be known as a boy, ok fair enough ... then has got offended because the teacher threw 'him' out of a competition for girls only, and he has lost his job. I just can't see that is right?

I have no idea, JaneJudge. I believe that it used to be the case that people could hide behind a change of name, but I am not a legal expert and these things change all the time, as light gets shone on the more dubious aspects.

MadeInYorkshire

I support JKR absolutely ...

I haven't managed to read all 8 pages (have only today had a notification about the post?) but where I live a teacher has been sacked over all this.

The young person a girl biologically, announced that henceforth she would be known as a boy, ok fair enough ... then has got offended because the teacher threw 'him' out of a competition for girls only, and he has lost his job. I just can't see that is right?

It's barmy. Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it. I hope the teacher is in a union. Mind you, some of those have been captured, too.

RosiesMaw

^Where do you get your statistics from ? Many trans have had operations and no longer have male looking bodies . Breast implants or top surgery is very common . I am definitely not blind^

Can you explain the medical procedures they undergo to reduce shoulder width, height, upper body strength and other physical characteristics which develop in teen age boys and young men as they go through puberty ?
There is increasing debate as to whether transwoman athletes should be included in the elite female competition. Most elite sports are divided into male and female divisions because of the greater athletic performance displayed by males. Without the sex division, females would have little chance of winning because males are faster, stronger, and have greater endurance capacity. Male physiology underpins their better athletic performance including increased muscle mass and strength, stronger bones, different skeletal structure, better adapted cardiorespiratory systems, and early developmental effects on brain networks that wires males to be inherently more competitive and aggressive. Testosterone secreted before birth, postnatally, and then after puberty is the major factor that drives these physiological sex differences, and as adults, testosterone levels are ten to fifteen times higher in males than females.

I was actually referring to the posters that refer to the look of a transgender person not the usual debate of transgender athletes which are minuscule.

Syracute - you dismiss genuine concerns as ‘the usual debate of transgender athletes which are miniscule’
That comment alone makes me conclude you’ve no idea how significant this is for girls and women. That suggests you’re only concerned about the well being of a minority of male burn athletes

Because the thread is long and I am not going back over the thread to pick out what are especially aggressive comments . The sad fact is the posters here are using the same old tired arguments against transgender people : toilets , changing rooms and sports . These are amplified by tabloid newspapers and spills over here in the comments .

That’s right, make accusations but don’t RLBT

MadeInYorkshire

I support JKR absolutely ...

I haven't managed to read all 8 pages (have only today had a notification about the post?) but where I live a teacher has been sacked over all this.

The young person a girl biologically, announced that henceforth she would be known as a boy, ok fair enough ... then has got offended because the teacher threw 'him' out of a competition for girls only, and he has lost his job. I just can't see that is right?

No, it is not right.

And some people think we are all supposed to go along with the lie.
Just go along with it all. Only words.
But words matter.
A lot.

Part of the reason I am still on this thread.
Often I leave long threads part way through.

I cannot and do not, support lies.

I was actually referring to the posters that refer to the look of a transgender person not the usual debate of transgender athletes which are minuscule
You think they are miniscule - hardly!

And as for posters - the appearance of trans women is not at issue- the legality (or not) of objecting to their presence in female-only spaces is.
Maybe you should RTFT

MadeinYorkshire - an excellent local high school was deemed in need of improvement on safeguarding. A teacher accidentally mispronounced a pupil

Re " the medical procedures they undergo to reduce shoulder width, height, upper body strength and other physical characteristics which develop in teen age boys and young men as they go through puberty " Lia Thomas, the swimmer who changed gender from male to female and entered women's competitions, (quickly going from a lowish ranking to a place on the podium ) listed the changes while being interviewed that hormone therapy had made - they included feet getting a size smaller! Does a course of female hormones really shrink bone?? Really??

Lia Thomas is imo an interesting personality

Well it took a lot of foot binding to keep the feet of Chinese women small enough to look 'beautiful' by the standards prevailing at the time. Maybe they should have gone for hormone therapy instead and saved a lot of pain, Elegran.

Doodledog

Syracute

Smileless2012

Once again Syracute you are making accusations that you're not prepared to validate. ugliness towards transgender people here, certain statements are hateful, misconstrued ideas on trans rights, taking examples from the tabloids to accentuate unfounded fears and stirring ugliness into what can become a dangerous hate.

There's not one example on this thread of any of the aforementioned.

I see it very differently and find this thread upsetting . If only people here would take the time to educate themselves by listening to transgender people tell their side of the story as I do then think you might have some real insight . I doubt the smug posters here would do that as it’s clear in their minds that their way of thinking is the only way . Which is shameful !

Well, as you are refusing to engage with anyone about what they have actually written, it is impossible to debate. Is that your intention?

I see you are using the 'some people' way of posting, which makes digs without mentioning names, so that you can say you weren't being personal, and if anyone responds directly to you you can claim to be being picked on. A personal comment (such as 'the smug posters' and calling us 'shameful') is still personal whether you have the decency to address it to a named person or not, and most of us on here know passive aggression like that when we see it. As for 'educate yourselves', that is the ultimate in 'I can't put up an argument, but will pretend that I know much more than you, and tell you to FOFO. When you agree with my point of view, I'll agree that you are 'educated' enough to engage with'. We've seen that on here before, too.

It's absolutely fine to disagree, but please - stop the pass agg way of posting, and at least argue with what people are saying instead of calling us names. You'll get a lot more respect that way.

Thank you Doodledog for putting so clearly what I wanted to say but gave up on as I began again to lose the will to respond to yet another of those posters making accusations against some people, urging us to "educate" ourselves, and declaring that they are most certainly not going to enter into a discussion.

And yes it is pas agg - it's also arrogant to assume that we have not listened to those involved, studied, or read about the issue we are debating. But it's a well-worn social media tactic used by those who want to make their point but don't want to be challenged on it.

... it happened a lot on Facebook during the run up to the Brexit referendum - rather haughty posters from both sides exhorting the other to "educate themselves" often with a triumphant flurry of emojis as a full-stop .

It's so flippin' tiresome...

Syracute

Because the thread is long and I am not going back over the thread to pick out what are especially aggressive comments.

Great avoidance tactic-often used by posters who don’t or can’t answer.

The sad fact is the posters here are using the same old tired arguments against transgender

The sad fact is the you are using the same old tired arguments for TIM in particular.

You appear to want their demand to be granted to use female toilets and changing rooms when they’re not female, even though it upsets some females.

You appear to be supporting their demand to be allowed to cheat at sports so they can win, even though they have an advantage simply because they’re MALE, and even though it deprives females if their hard earned rewards.

Are you saying that you aren’t doing that?

Are you claiming that some TIM don’t do that, or that females aren’t hurt by those actions?

You claim These are amplified by tabloid newspapers

Can’t you see how ridiculous that is?

If TIM weren’t doing any of those things, there would be nothing to amplify and nothing to comment on, on here.

Just popped back to say that the posts on this thread- don't address us as some, do you mean me?, well say my name, you are passive aggressive, you just claim to be picked on, most of us agree, remind me so much of the gangs of bullying girls found in schools.
It's very sad that women who should be older and wiser choose to use such methods on other posters.
It's even sadder when those women claim to be feminists and support women- only if you agree with them!
Have fun.

Way to go Glorianny. I knew you’d be back with yet another own goal. This is your best yet.
It's even sadder when those women claim to be feminists and support women- only if you agree with them!
So you claim to be feminist
You claim to support women
But only if we agree with you???

Actually Glorianny doesn't mind that you disagree with her and is happy to debate

It's very clear on every thread

As someone who has debated against Glorianny on other topics that we don't agree on, I find her to be very fair minded and rational where she disagrees with only occasional exclamations of "what on earth are you talking about" lol

Anyone waiting for an answer can wait. Is this Glorianny being willing to debate? She couldn't list any rights transpeople don't have that everyone else does, so resorted to not being given their preferred pronouns, and women wanting the word woman used. That was for official documentation, we don't like 'cervix havers' and the like where women is accurate and preferred for the vast majority of females, . Dickens set out the reasoning for that very well. *Glorianny flounced from this thread with a very childish 'have fun' just as she has repeated tonight.

Glorianny

Just popped back to say that the posts on this thread- don't address us as some, do you mean me?, well say my name, you are passive aggressive, you just claim to be picked on, most of us agree, remind me so much of the gangs of bullying girls found in schools.
It's very sad that women who should be older and wiser choose to use such methods on other posters.
It's even sadder when those women claim to be feminists and support women- only if you agree with them!
Have fun.

So why do you use the 'some people' tactic then? You are the first to jump on what you call 'personal attacks' when anyone disagrees, yet you call people pathetic and say we don't understand basic concepts, compare us to schoolchildren, insinuate that we are racist, homophobic and more. All of those things are being personal, whether you name the poster or not. Then if someone responds you say they are making it all about them. If they don't they are 'avoiding the question'. It's straight out of an abuser's handbook, and it's not even subtly done. We see you.

'Popping back' to insult us further then popping off again is the ultimate in intellectual cowardice.

I've found Glorianny to be fair minded and rational too but sadly not on this thread.

Posts that criticise other posters and refer to them as some are passive aggressive as are posts that make accusations but when the poster is asked to verify, by quoting the post or naming the poster, refuse to do so because the thread is so long etc.

For me the explanation is simple; they can't because the accusations being made are without substance.

'Popping back' to insult us further then popping off again is the ultimate in intellectual cowardice agreed Doodledog.

I'd say she is done with this thread and isn't coming back, don't blame her

I often think removing an opposing view would give less opportunity for things to be said that cannot be unsaid

Hmmm

VioletSky

I'd say she is done with this thread and isn't coming back, don't blame her

I often think removing an opposing view would give less opportunity for things to be said that cannot be unsaid

Hmmm

I often think removing an opposing view would give less opportunity for things to be said that cannot be unsaid

Who is saying things that you think would be better "unsaid"?

... and I believe Glorianny is a grown woman who can speak up for herself, I don't think she's scuttled away in fear of anyone on here, which is what your comment implies.

Honestly VS, you do like to give the pot an extra little stir, don't you?