Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Dickens
Honestly VS, you do like to give the pot an extra little stir, don't you?

Yes indeed.

The Cass report is due. It’s likely to be strongly opposed to encouraging children to change gender identity, as well as opposing medical intervention
I’ll be interested in the response of Violet and Gloryannie

Every so often a little relief (and sanity) comes along in the shape of a Matt cartoon.
And breathe…..

😂😂😂

RosiesMaw

Every so often a little relief (and sanity) comes along in the shape of a Matt cartoon.
And breathe…..

That could be my DH, he is convinced I am trying to kill him with too many veggies 🤣

RosiesMaw

Every so often a little relief (and sanity) comes along in the shape of a Matt cartoon.
And breathe…..

Love it!!

RosiesMaw

Thanks for the cartoon.🤣🤣🤣

Very good RosiesMaw .

Matt is wonderful! Thanks, RosiesMaw.

If you think about it, which this thread has compelled me to do - all crime committed against the individual on the basis of his / her difference - is a hate crime no?

Perhaps ethnicity, disability, age, and sex, are unique though - because these are characteristics over which an individual had or has no choice in determining.

If we are going to winkle out the various characteristics for protection on an individual basis which looks specifically at how the person in that particular group is affected - then all characteristics have got to be included, and that means sex in the form of misogyny and misandry must also become hate crimes.

And IMO the reason why misandry - and particularly misogyny - are not included is because 'the-powers-that-be' have got themselves into a pickle. For their own reasons, political or otherwise, they will not admit that medical science and biology has determined that - 'cosmetics' aside, you simply cannot change your chromosomes.

If they were to acknowledge this fact, they would enrage a sizeable number (I assume) of the trans community whose characteristic is now legally protected. Which would then mean that, far from being done-and-dusted, the legislation would continue to throw up anomalies and challenges, creating political, social and legal headaches, probably expensive ones, too.

Hence the delay.

I've also been thinking about the, not-all-transwomen-are-predators issue. I'm willing to bet, along with the belief that most men are not predatory abusers - that that is absolutely true.

However, in spite of this 'truth' - women have fought for, and won, their protected spaces, presumably on the basis that sufficient numbers of men are a threat to sufficient numbers of women.

I don't want to labour this point - it's all been said many times over - but for those of us on here who do not accept that TWAW biologically, then we have to make the same assumptions on the same principles as those made when women's protected spaces were enshrined in law. In spite of the probable fact that the majority of transwomen would not be a threat.

Finally - to those who think (and have said) that I am "blind", need educating, and that I am full of hate and anger (along with others) - if you believe this post is hateful - then report it to GNHQ because hate-speech is most definitely not tolerated on here.

I would ask a question though - why do you Syracute assume that I have not already 'educated' myself? FYI, I read scholarly articles (I don't rely on the sensational tabloids for information), have listened to the voices of the abused in the trans community, and have a well-established relationship with a transwoman who I've know for many years and who - along with other people I like and trust - I would turn to if I wanted 'help' or support in certain matters. However, I have a different perspective to you Syracute and to you VS... but that does not mean I am "blind", uneducated, nor incapable of self-reflection, nor dishonest, nor any of the other failings you might have mentioned, it just means I see things differently. And my anger is not directed at the trans community - it's directed at those who attempt to invalidate (I mean also in the wider community not just on GN) my view with accusations of hate and bigotry. And I am angry at those who would stifle and silence me and others with such claims through the "no debate" trope, threats and abuse, cancelling and no-platforming.

RosiesMaw

Every so often a little relief (and sanity) comes along in the shape of a Matt cartoon.
And breathe…..

... Matt always tries to 'soften the edges' - he's a gentle soul with a wry humour. Much needed.

We really do sometimes need to laugh at ourselves and others without malice. Which he does to perfection.

RosiesMaw 🙂

Thank you, much needed.

Very well put, Dickens

YES YES YES to your post of Tue 09-Apr-24 12:23:20 Dickens

If all the complications (that now cause so much disharmony and so many accusations of "hatred") had been thoroughly dicussed by everyone before this country - and many other countries - become concreted into half-considered legislation on such a basic subject, there would have been more data, more research, more input from other sources as well as from those lobbying enthusiastically for immediate wholesale social engineering. More balanced solutions might have been found. It takes far more effort to do that piecemeal after putting new laws into effect than to do it earlier, in the run-up to passing them.

Once again Dickens you have said what very many of us think. Thank you for another excellent post.

Dickens

VioletSky

I'd say she is done with this thread and isn't coming back, don't blame her

I often think removing an opposing view would give less opportunity for things to be said that cannot be unsaid

Hmmm

I often think removing an opposing view would give less opportunity for things to be said that cannot be unsaid

Who is saying things that you think would be better "unsaid"?

... and I believe Glorianny is a grown woman who can speak up for herself, I don't think she's scuttled away in fear of anyone on here, which is what your comment implies.

Honestly VS, you do like to give the pot an extra little stir, don't you?

Just reread this. Are we now going to speak for others as if we know exactly what they mean?

Glorianny, just in case you pop back again, I know you’re is very particular the no one tells you what you think or what you meant to say. Will you welcome VS’ intervention on your behalf.

I agree, Dickens. As I said upthread (and as all of us have said over and over) women's spaces exist for a reason. That does not mean that we think that all men are predators, but most men don't get in a strop and assume that we do think that way - they just use the relevant facilities, as they understand why women's spaces exist.

It's the same with transwomen. I don't for a minute think that all transwomen are rapists in disguise. Of course they aren't. But they are male-bodied, the same as the other non-predatory males who use facilities designed for men.

I do see that there are places where transwomen going into a male facility (changing room, loo, whatever) would be putting themselves at risk of ridicule at best and attack at worst. That is undeniable, and would happen because of the fact that a minority of men are violent. The difference between my perspective and that of the so-called 'allies' is that I don't think that the answer is to put women at risk from that minority of violent men in order to protect transwomen from them.

The risk for transwomen using male facilities is not because all men are violent, but because some of them might be, just as the risk for women of having males in our facilities is not because all transwomen are predatory, but because some of them might be. So far then, it's an even risk, except that male-bodied people are generally stronger than women, so if it came to the worst they are better able to defend themselves from attack. To my way of thinking, even if we ignore the fact that women's facilities are for women, and males have no automatic right to use them, that tips the scales.

Great post Dickens.

Not only does it take more effort Elegran it also gives rise to complaints that rights are being taken away. Some of which like a man self identifying as a woman and having the right to be referred to as she/her by their victim of a sexual assault, should never have been given in the first place.

Rosie51

Once again Dickens you have said what very many of us think. Thank you for another excellent post.

This was my reaction too, and I couldn't put it better.

So all transgender women should use the men’s room ? Many don’t look like men at all ! Many have fully transitioned and no longer have a penis. You think they should go to a men’s toilet ? Those who think trans people are so dangerous don’t seem to be aware of the real dangers transgender people go through on a daily basis. What they have their whole lives. That is being ignored on this thread . They are brave to be their authentic selves yet here they are painted as dangerous and predatory. Ridiculous! The problem with this sort of thinking is that it spreads and gives dangerous influence to those who will go out and use violence against the trans population and feel validated. The occurrence of violence against the trans community is far larger than vice versa. May I also point out that Trump was recently convicted of sexual assault that occurred in a women’s changing room. So I think if there is a predator they will find a way.

Three changing rooms/toilets. Mens, Women's, Unisex. Simples.

Aveline

Three changing rooms/toilets. Mens, Women's, Unisex. Simples.

👍

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66984843

This article highlights that crimes against transgender people are rising. So it’s really the transgender people that have something to fear .

Syracute

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66984843

This article highlights that crimes against transgender people are rising. So it’s really the transgender people that have something to fear .

I can only assume that the transgender people who have been a victim of hate crime/attacked must be visibly transgender.

If so, this blows Glorianny’s argument out of the water that it is impossible to tell the difference between a TW and a woman.

Or a trans man and a man

Sorry premature posting.