Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Ooh Blake's Seven. I remember Servalen!

She was stunning.
I had a crush on her and Avon in Blake's Seven.

I find it disconcerting when some people in life are unable to make the distinction in conversation, between the talk about one section of a group, and another.

They accuse others of putting everyone of that section in one group, when it is actually themselves quite often.

If there is a problem with one section of one group, in reality, it ought to be easy to talk about that one section. But it isnt.

Callistemon21

^When I was at school I was very thin with long hair - if I didn't wear a cap, I looked like a sodden floor mop with legs climbing out of the pool^

😂😂😂

Remember a series called Blake's Seven? I had my hair cut like the Supreme Commander at one time!
And wore trousers. It was after a disastrous perm I had when I was pregnant, my hair started breaking.

That's not me, btw, it's the lovely Jacqueline Pearce

Oh, I thought that might have been a younger you (I didn't watch Blake's Seven)! - I was about to say, what a stunner!

Jacqueline Pearce is lovely, it's a super cut, I think it's what we used to call the androgynous look - which really, is nothing new.

Young men and women have been dressing similarly for simply ages now. I have a friend whose son and daughter swap each other's clothing between them - resulting in her never knowing in whose bedroom to stow the clean laundry...

... and yes, the son has worn a couple of the daughter's 'sarong' type skirts - over his shorts...

Callistemon21

^When I was at school I was very thin with long hair - if I didn't wear a cap, I looked like a sodden floor mop with legs climbing out of the pool^

😂😂😂

Remember a series called Blake's Seven? I had my hair cut like the Supreme Commander at one time!
And wore trousers. It was after a disastrous perm I had when I was pregnant, my hair started breaking.

That's not me, btw, it's the lovely Jacqueline Pearce

I loved Servalan swanning around the galaxy in a long frock and high heels giving out her orders.
I had my hair cut like hers as well

My Mum was most bemused and kept laughing at me suep1953!

Callistemon21

My Mum was most bemused and kept laughing at me suep1953!

And DH kept calling me The Supreme Commander 😁

Oh, I thought that might have been a younger you (I didn't watch Blake's Seven)! - I was about to say, what a stunner!

Of course, I looked just like her 🤔

Callistemon21

Callistemon21

My Mum was most bemused and kept laughing at me suep1953!

And DH kept calling me The Supreme Commander 😁

He knows his place 😀

No!

Actually, I am not ninety-one, but nearly ninety-three. The years gallop by too fast for me to remember exactly what age I am.

Quite simply, I don't have any evidence or reason to believe that trans women as a group are any more dangerous to women than women as a group.

The problem is Caleo that transwomen are males and most retain their male genitalia. Men with nefarious intent can claim to be transwomen, they don't even need to shave their beards, and gain access to what should be single sex spaces. Is there a way to tell the difference?
What about this transwoman in the female shower and changing room in PlanetFitness USA? She is shaving, but does that convince you?
My husband and sons are no threat to women or girls, but they stay out of single sex areas because they respect the privacy, dignity and feeling safe needed by females, not because of any regulations.

Caleo

Actually, I am not ninety-one, but nearly ninety-three. The years gallop by too fast for me to remember exactly what age I am.

Quite simply, I don't have any evidence or reason to believe that trans women as a group are any more dangerous to women than women as a group.

You must have missed several news items about supposed transwomen who have assaulted and raped women and girls.

However rapist 'Karen' White blames the authorities for putting him into a female prison.

You are right, Caleo as a group transwomen are not any more dangerous to women than women as a group, but among them there are some who are.

Just as it is no easier to know in advance that a specific strange man is going to be a danger to lone women, there is no way to predict that a stranger who has self-identified as a woman but has retained his male equipment and presumably his male hormones and preference for women for sex can be guaranteed to NOT be dangerous.

Elegran, do you think that people who self identify as transwomen should not be classed by authorities as transwomen unless and until their oestrogen/ testosterone balance is female? Obviously in a free country people can't be made to wear apparel to signify rank or sex so it's hard to identify people by hormone balance.

Among all sorts of gender presentations there are criminals and public nuisances, and we really do need reliable statistics before we can claim that a woman who used to be a man is more criminal or has more criminal potential, than someone who was always a woman.
As for the penis and the testosterone, all males have to control their sex instincts and I can see no evidence or reason that transwomen who retain penis and testosterone are any more rapist than males.

Adequately staffed and surveilled public areas such as hospitals, schools and care homes would solve much of the problem of secret rapists.

As for the penis and the testosterone, all males have to control their sex instincts and I can see no evidence or reason that transwomen who retain penis and testosterone are any more rapist than males.

In that case why restrict any male bodied person from any female spaces? We exclude all men because although most aren't a danger it is impossible to tell which ones are, it's not an insult to men and decent ones have no objection.

The desire for single sex spaces isn't just about rape. It's about privacy, dignity and yes safety when women are in a vulnerable state, especially when undressed. In the sporting arena it's about fair competition. No man ever becomes a woman, it is impossible to change your sex, just as it's impossible to change your age or your race, or indeed species. Do you accept transracial identities, or transage identities? Rachel Dolezal, a white woman, felt and identified as black, so could probably be called 'transblack' as opposed to a 'cisblack' person. She 'passed' as a black woman but once her transblack status was revealed she was vilified by white and black people.

As Rosie says, "We exclude all men because although most aren't a danger it is impossible to tell which ones are, it's not an insult to men and decent ones have no objection. " and as I said " but among them there are some who are."

If a man really feels that he is in the wrong body and should be a woman, why would he want to keep his male genitals? Look at the late Jan Morris who had such a difficult time and had to go abroad to have surgery, but then got on with her life (and I have no problem calling someone like that "her"). While I admire Jan Morris, I certainly don't admire people like Isla Bryson who is a convicted rapist.

Among all sorts of gender presentations there are criminals and public nuisances, and we really do need reliable statistics before we can claim that a woman who used to be a man is more criminal or has more criminal potential, than someone who was always a woman.
As for the penis and the testosterone, all males have to control their sex instincts and I can see no evidence or reason that transwomen who retain penis and testosterone are any more rapist than males.
But they are more rapist than women, which is the reason why female spaces are still necessary. It is also the case that roughly 50% of transwomen in jail are there for sex offences, compared to 19% of male prisoners as a whole, and 4% of female prisoners. (source: committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/#:~:text=In%20the%20overall%20prison%20population,prisoners%20in%20England%20and%20Wales.)

See also:
High numbers of transgender prisoners have been convicted of sex offending.
We first revealed this in 2017 based on our own analysis of prison inspection reports that allowed us to estimate how many transgender prisoners were being housed in prisons reserved for sex offenders. Our findings were then confirmed by prison statistics obtained from the MOJ through Freedom of Information requests revealing 60 out of the 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales in 2017 had at least one conviction for a sexual offence.

A new Freedom of Information request submitted by Fair Play For Women now reveals the same pattern is observed in data from 2019. This time 81 out of the 163 transgender prisoners in England and Wales had at least one conviction for a sexual offence.

(Note: No data is available for 2020 because the annual count of transgender prisoners was postponed to due operational difficulties caused by Covid restrictions).

The full article is available here.

Rosie51 wrote:
"In that case why restrict any male bodied person from any female spaces? We exclude all men because although most aren't a danger it is impossible to tell which ones are, it's not an insult to men and decent ones have no objection.

The desire for single sex spaces isn't just about rape. It's about privacy, dignity and yes safety when women are in a vulnerable state, especially when undressed. In the sporting arena it's about fair competition. No man ever becomes a woman, it is impossible to change your sex, just as it's impossible to change your age or your race, or indeed species. Do you accept transracial identities, or transage identities? Rachel Dolezal, a white woman, felt and identified as black, so could probably be called 'transblack' as opposed to a 'cisblack' person. She 'passed' as a black woman but once her transblack status was revealed she was vilified by white and black people."

In an ideal world I'd accept, we all would accept , all sorts of trans-identities. But hey, the world as it is , is not paradise!

I hope that cultures will transition towards being blind to sex, gender, race, skin colour, age, wheelchairism, slow -learning ism, and sexual orientation, and that there will be absolute freedom of choice. Meantime I accept all Rosie says and I see that we must accede to current norms. But the first step to acceptance of differences is faith that acceptance of differences can happen.

Michael Deacon in The Telegraph today:

“ Since the publication, two weeks ago, of the Cass Review into the use of puberty-blocking drugs on vulnerable children, you may have noticed that some Labour MPs are growing a tiny bit braver. On Monday night, Shabana Mahmood, the shadow justice secretary, said she agrees with J K Rowling that “biological sex is real and immutable” (ie women don’t have penises) – and added that women shouldn’t be punished for saying so.

A step forward, yes. But that doesn’t mean we should let Labour off the hook. Because, as Rowling herself so rightly pointed out in response, a major apology is in order. After all, now that senior party figures like Mahmood are at last plucking up the courage to speak out in defence of women, when is Labour going to say sorry for its appalling treatment of Rosie Duffield?

Duffield is a backbench Labour MP who has always been clear that biological sex is “real and immutable”. For this sole reason, she has spent the past five years being relentlessly abused, smeared and accused of “transphobia” by Labour activists – and even some Labour MPs. Yet, in all that time, senior party figures haven’t lifted a finger to defend her. Indeed, according to Duffield, Sir Keir Starmer has never offered her a word of sympathy, either in public or in private. Like the rest of Labour’s frontbenchers, he left her to the wolves.”

It's a refusal to accept difference that underpins all this though. Men and women are different. That's the point.

I doubt that many people would choose to be a slow-learning wheelchair user, which is not to disparage those who are. I just don't follow your logic, but it seems to be suggesting that those of us who want safe spaces for women are somehow discriminatory and unable to accept difference. That is done a lot on these threads (although usually very aggressively with accusations of racism, homophobia and so on) and it's really not acceptable.

I am not an intolerant person, and I fully embrace difference. I just don't believe that it is possible to change sex, and I do believe that there are times when women need to be safe from predatory men, and that we need to have single sex rights as well as single sex places. As soon as anyone can identify as female those rights go, and there is nothing to stop discrimination against women. The fact that we bear children, have periods and are (generally) physically smaller and weaker than men mean that there are times when we are vulnerable. It would be a retrograde step to remove the rights and safety that we (as a sex) have taken a long time to acquire.

Strategic bump for t***l avoidance.

Well said Doodledog the voice of sanity.