Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

Caleo

Rosie, I believe it is your human right and your privilege to say what sex you want to present yourself as , or no category at all if you so please.

Gender yes, sex no.
And until you use that choice to cheat, lie, or threaten or harm or remove rights and privileges from females, or demand that others must repeat your lie, you should indeed have the choice.

In the same way, I could identify as rich and want to live a life that reflects that wish. Until and unless I take what doesn’t belong to me in order to maintain my chosen identity I have the right to make my choice.

Yes the children receiving treatment from the clinics prior to the cass report were at risk of harm, thankfully the whistleblowers and those brave enough to challenge this have helped to shine a light on that harm.

since the dawn of recorded history there have been people who felt they were another sex .
Until relatively recently in the scale of time there were no artificial hormones or surgeries to give these people and yet they managed to live their lives without having to compel other's speech or behaviour. They lived alongside everybody else peacefully, just quietly going about their business.

Rosie, I believe it is your human right and your privilege to say what sex you want to present yourself as , or no category at all if you so please.
You can present as anything you like, but you cannot change your sex. It matters. If transwomen start dying from prostate cancer because they've not acknowledged their male sex body so haven't enjoyed male screening tests they'll be an outcry. The same for transmen who fail to acknowledge their female sex and miss female screening for cervical cancer etc. Many medical situations present very differently in men and women, heart attacks being the first that came to mind. Nature doesn't care how you "feel" nature observes your sex. If you are registered as the 'wrong' sex problems can arise.

Urmstongran wrote:

"Maybe, just maybe, we are turning a corner regarding this topic. I hope so."

For what it's worth U, I feel I have understood more since we all began having these conversations. It's only since I read case histories of trans people that I understood the horrific dangers that many trans people , including children, have to live with. Often their lives are in danger.

I give up. This is wilful misunderstanding of the difference between sex and gender. The pill is irrelevant!

Rosie, I believe it is your human right and your privilege to say what sex you want to present yourself as , or no category at all if you so please.

I think the point is, not making big decisions about gender when so young. I think her report spot on.

Callistemon, it's only in recent times that people have heard of hormones let alone chromosomes, yet since the dawn of recorded history there have been people who felt they were another sex .

Chromosomes are unchangeable and define sex. Gender, as Callistemon21 says, is different, and can be defined by choice, hormones and feelings, at least to some extent. Caleo perhaps needs to study the science, and then perhaps achieve accuracy in that (unlike in copying posters' names )

Caleo

WhenIwasYounger wrote:

"No it isn’t, Caleo!! You can change gender, although some people prefer to declare that they have done so rather than put any serious effort into the very difficult process, but no matter how much plastic surgey or hormones you have, your chromosomes will ALWAYS stay the same! They declare your sex and cannot be changed. Ever."

I believe you are correct . However most people don't define sex by chromosomes . Chromosomes don't directly affect how we feel, For most practical purposes including our feelings, we mostly define sex by hormone levels. that's to say mainly levels of testosterone and oestrogen

However most people don't define sex by chromosomes . Chromosomes don't directly affect how we feel, For most practical purposes including our feelings, we mostly define sex by hormone levels. that's to say mainly levels of testosterone and oestrogen

Nobody I know defines their sex by hormone levels, I've not a clue what mine are! I define my sex in the normal way. I was born with external female genitalia, so was registered female. At puberty I grew breasts, started to menstruate, my hips widened. I was attracted to opposite sex people, married one, and was fortunate to gestate children.

Can you honestly say you know what your hormone levels are? Is a man with very low testosterone levels not a man, or a woman with low oestrogen not a woman? What are they? Does a woman with a high testosterone reading become a man?

Chromosomes don't directly affect how we feel

And? That's presumably why we talk about gender, not sex.

However most people don't define sex by chromosomes


I cannot believe I read that!

In the 1950s dertain people who were deemed to be sexually abnormal were forced to take hormones that were supposed to make them normal. The science that produced The Pill and HRT was also used for a cruel purpose.

WhenIwasYounger wrote:

"No it isn’t, Caleo!! You can change gender, although some people prefer to declare that they have done so rather than put any serious effort into the very difficult process, but no matter how much plastic surgey or hormones you have, your chromosomes will ALWAYS stay the same! They declare your sex and cannot be changed. Ever."

I believe you are correct . However most people don't define sex by chromosomes . Chromosomes don't directly affect how we feel, For most practical purposes including our feelings, we mostly define sex by hormone levels. that's to say mainly levels of testosterone and oestrogen

Glorianny

No one can be instructed to take part in research.
^Seeking consent is fundamental in research involving people. Participants’ consent is legally valid and professionally acceptable only if they have the capacity to decide whether to take part in the research, have been properly informed, and have agreed to participate without pressure or coercion^

The NHS must reveal the fate of 9,000 transgender young people treated by the controversial Tavistock clinic, the Health Secretary has said in the wake of the Cass review.
The landmark report published on Wednesday found adult gender clinics had refused to disclose whether transgender people who started their treatment as children later changed their minds about transitioning, or went on to suffer serious mental health problems.
Victoria Atkins, the Health Secretary, met Amanda Pritchard, the chief executive of NHS England, on Wednesday to tell her “nothing less than full co-operation by those clinics in the research is acceptable. (Source = The Telegraph)

Hmm. It seems that whereas nobody can be instructed to take part, it is as I said - their anonymised data can be used when they have done so. As ever.

Do you understand the nature of 'informed' consent? If you don't know what is happening, you can't give consent to it.

I would have thought it obvious that collecting information from a clinic that deals in 'gender' reassignment would be much more efficient than asking all GPs if they have someone on their lists who may have been referred to such a clinic and then collating it. I suspect that you are deliberately misunderstanding my posts.

Doodledog

*Seeking consent is fundamental in research involving people. Participants’ consent is legally valid and professionally acceptable only if they have the capacity to decide whether to take part in the research, have been properly informed, and have agreed to participate without pressure or coercion*
Yes, but data (generalised) from medical records is routinely used in research. If someone joins a double blind study, or similar they have to be informed, but if their records are used, say, to count the number of patients with a particular illness, or who are registered as smokers, drinkers, over 50's or whatever. They cannot be identified.

If you choose to opt out of having your records used in research in ways which may identify you you can do so.

What has this got to do with clinics refusing to co-operate with research, though?

And it is interesting to see someone argued against the right to patients having informed consent about who examines them clutch at straws to defend the lack of accountability here.

So if the information is already available through GPs why is it necessary to instruct Gender clinics to share theirs?

I have always said that you can object to a physical examination by anyone at any time without giving a reason, and ask for another person to do the examination. Which means even if you somehow thought there was a faint possibility that the person about to examine you was trans,or you just didn't like the look of them, you can ask for someone else.

. . .our health info is all over the place

Of course it is!

This isn't about transpeople opting out because people are asking them to describe their genitals - that's bonkers. It's just a way to attack the Cass report and defend the indefensible.

As soon as we didn’t actually opt out of GPs etc sharing info, we all knew it would be shared.

It’s anonymous, or supposed to be, but our health info is all over the place.😗

Seeking consent is fundamental in research involving people. Participants’ consent is legally valid and professionally acceptable only if they have the capacity to decide whether to take part in the research, have been properly informed, and have agreed to participate without pressure or coercion
Yes, but data (generalised) from medical records is routinely used in research. If someone joins a double blind study, or similar they have to be informed, but if their records are used, say, to count the number of patients with a particular illness, or who are registered as smokers, drinkers, over 50's or whatever. They cannot be identified.

If you choose to opt out of having your records used in research in ways which may identify you you can do so.

What has this got to do with clinics refusing to co-operate with research, though?

And it is interesting to see someone argued against the right to patients having informed consent about who examines them clutch at straws to defend the lack of accountability here.

No one can be instructed to take part in research.
Seeking consent is fundamental in research involving people. Participants’ consent is legally valid and professionally acceptable only if they have the capacity to decide whether to take part in the research, have been properly informed, and have agreed to participate without pressure or coercion

Would anyone really want any medical professional to share information about their medical treatment without their permission?

Urmstongran

(Cont,)

“ The clinical leads of the NHS Gender Identity Clinics in Northampton, Newcastle and Sheffield also refused to cooperate with the Cass Review, as did the discredited clinic at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust.

Just one of the seven units – the Laurels Gender Identity Clinic in Exeter – agreed to supply any evidence.

On the eve of the Cass Review, NHS England’s national director of specialised commissioning wrote to NHS hospital leaders operating adult clinics, telling them that “mandatory action” would be taken if clinics did not comply.

The letter, seen by The Telegraph, says clinical leads at the clinics failed to co-operate with researchers.

It said: “Despite the best efforts of the research team, the necessary cooperation from the clinical leads within the Gender Dysphoria Clinics was not forthcoming, despite – and contrary to – positive assurances from CMOs [chief medical officers].”

Victoria Atkins, the Health Secretary, yesterday said the failure of the clinics to comply was “disgraceful”.

NHS England said it has now issued instructions to all clinics to take part in the research.

Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health, Dr Glidden and Dr Charlton were approached for comment.”

Blimey. I’m really shocked to read this. But not (really) surprised.
Are you?

These awful tentacles are spread far and wide. It’s abuse of children IMO. Prosecutions need to be brought.

These are adult gender clinics what have children to do with it?

(Cont,)

“ The clinical leads of the NHS Gender Identity Clinics in Northampton, Newcastle and Sheffield also refused to cooperate with the Cass Review, as did the discredited clinic at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust.

Just one of the seven units – the Laurels Gender Identity Clinic in Exeter – agreed to supply any evidence.

On the eve of the Cass Review, NHS England’s national director of specialised commissioning wrote to NHS hospital leaders operating adult clinics, telling them that “mandatory action” would be taken if clinics did not comply.

The letter, seen by The Telegraph, says clinical leads at the clinics failed to co-operate with researchers.

It said: “Despite the best efforts of the research team, the necessary cooperation from the clinical leads within the Gender Dysphoria Clinics was not forthcoming, despite – and contrary to – positive assurances from CMOs [chief medical officers].”

Victoria Atkins, the Health Secretary, yesterday said the failure of the clinics to comply was “disgraceful”.

NHS England said it has now issued instructions to all clinics to take part in the research.

Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health, Dr Glidden and Dr Charlton were approached for comment.”

Blimey. I’m really shocked to read this. But not (really) surprised.
Are you?

These awful tentacles are spread far and wide. It’s abuse of children IMO. Prosecutions need to be brought.

Caleo

It is wrong to expect anyone at all to discuss what their genitals look like.

---------------

Actually, since modern medicine discovered plastic surgery, and the Pill .sex change is an option.

🤣🤣🤣

I took the Pill at one time. Does that mean I’m now a man? Really, the above is the funniest thing I’ve read today,