Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

Glorianny

Doodledog

Well quite, Iam, but when defending a point of view that has been proven wrong (eg that puberty blockers and binders are fully reversible and harmless) every passing straw has to be clutched. If we all start discussing the Japanese education system it might detract from the more relevant question of academic freedom and its importance in a democracy.

I have never said they were fully reversible I have said that for some children they offer a breathing space and a way of adjusting and feeling more comfortable with their body. But there is some evidence that there are children who have stopped taking them and not transitioned

Hmmmm.

Syracute produce the verified evidence that Dr Hilary Cass was politically motivated and I will agree that you are not politically motivated.

As things stand both claims are on an equal basis as being totally unverified.

It is simply wrong to say that there will be no help for them.

Read NHS England's Response to the Final Report of the Independent Rreview of Gender Services to Children and Young People.
www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/gender-dysphoria-clinical-programme/implementing-advice-from-the-cass-review/

M0nica

All you have to say is that someone is 'politically motivated'

It is a form of McCarthyism, that flourished in the USA in the 1950s, all you had to do was accuse someone of being a communist and despite any evidence behind the accusation, you were branded, your career destroyed and many were forced into exile.

I am going to suggest that Syracute is politically motivated making the claim he/she has made against Dr Cass.

What a ridiculous comparison ! I happened to read an article about this subject and it was mentioned there and it certainly bears thinking about . Science is often bent to fit an ideology . You don’t have to wonder there is a minority of people who are giving an alternate opinion to Cass’s report as you would soon be circled by those that don’t believe in supporting the idea that some children don’t identify as their birth sex . My biggest problem is that there now exists no help for these children and they will be left with nowhere to turn as no other alternative is now available . That’s simply wrong !

Glorianny

Iam64

It’s tedious to be constantly and treated as though none of us are aware of the risks associated with drugs like Ritalin. We are parents, grandparents, teachers, social workers. , therapists, camhs workers . Because we don’t share the minority view here doesnt mean we are wrong

Perhaps you and Rosie51 should discuss that. She seems to think all drugs given to children are researched and the risks known.

Could you stop with the lies. That's more than tedious. I have never said all drugs given to children are researched and the risks known. You on the other hand think it's fine to let young children consent to treatments when they can't possibly understand the full implications.

Glorianny

Just because something was done does not mean it must or will be done.

It is so interesting how any attempt to deal with the issue is rejected with really unfounded and desperate attempts to prove there isn't a solution.

These children are not going to go away. Trans issues will continue to be there. There is now no real support for children in England. Some will no doubt be taken abroad for treatment, some will access private treatment, some will use the dark web and will be given god knows what, which they will probably share with their friends. But you seem quite happy that nothing will be done. I suppose it makes many of you feel better claiming that the root cause is transactivism. Then you can pretend that things will get better, when it's obvious they won't.

Oh come on, get real! Can you honestly say there would have been any change in the Tavistock's approach without the Cass review? Whistleblowers and anybody who challenged what they were doing were rounded on. David Bell and Sonia Appleby for starters.

Many of us have been advocating for a wait and see approach, accompanied by counselling and support. None of us advocated for a do nothing approach, and let them sink or swim. You are disgraceful making these unfounded allegations, but then it is a known tactic of transactivists.
That some parents will take their children abroad for treatment isn't new, Susie Green took her young son to America to get puberty blockers and then to Thailand to have surgery for a 16th birthday present. She's also on video laughing with another woman how inverting his penis was difficult because "there wasn't much to work with" Well no, not having gone through puberty the penis was child sized, not man sized.

Iam64

It’s tedious to be constantly and treated as though none of us are aware of the risks associated with drugs like Ritalin. We are parents, grandparents, teachers, social workers. , therapists, camhs workers . Because we don’t share the minority view here doesnt mean we are wrong

Perhaps you and Rosie51 should discuss that. She seems to think all drugs given to children are researched and the risks known.

Just because something was done does not mean it must or will be done.

It is so interesting how any attempt to deal with the issue is rejected with really unfounded and desperate attempts to prove there isn't a solution.

These children are not going to go away. Trans issues will continue to be there. There is now no real support for children in England. Some will no doubt be taken abroad for treatment, some will access private treatment, some will use the dark web and will be given god knows what, which they will probably share with their friends. But you seem quite happy that nothing will be done. I suppose it makes many of you feel better claiming that the root cause is transactivism. Then you can pretend that things will get better, when it's obvious they won't.

Glorianny simply contradicted your wrongful belief that the trans issue was the only use of such drugs on children. I never expressed any such belief. I did ask for your evidence of many children being given drugs with little to no research on them There had obviously been some, (more than none or a little) research to enable a list of preferred over not preferred drugs.

It's ridiculous the lengths to which you'll go to avoid owning your support for the transitioning of confused children and lack of knowledge about the process and purpose of puberty (but I can see why you'd want to) . You have supported PBs and then cross sex hormones for children. If administered early enough they will be denied adult sexual function and likely left sterile.

Who has said cross hormones must follow? well at the Tavistock it was virtually all those who started PBs, so no it may not have been compulsory but it was usual practice or are you going to deny that too? Immediate positive affirmation of a child being trans does reinforce the idea, and the logical conclusion is to progress on to cross sex hormones.

Who has said cross hormones must follow? No-one on here has used the word "must"- but it has been said more than once, and from statistics, not from guesswork, that they DO follow, very, very often.

Glorianny

. Proof that children have been on unresearched drugs for years.

Are you saying that that makes it right to continue drugging children who don’t understand the potential outcome of the drugs on their future lives.

Rosie51

^I wonder why you are so averse to providing the support some children might benefit from?^ I'm not at all averse to providing support. It was the trans advocates and allies who asserted only immediate positive affirmation was the correct way to go, and who wanted any type of counselling banned. Now you seem to be advocating counselling.

I don't think we are talking about children who simply don't like going through puberty, only those who know the changes their body will go through, and reject them totally as not who they want to be. but it's only by going through puberty that the majority of children who feel like this will relieve their distress. Many will realise they're gay or lesbians. Stopping natural puberty to follow up with cross sex hormones is not going through an opposite sex puberty, that window of opportunity has gone.

As for the research it is comparatively recent and lists numerous drugs children have been prescribed, some of which are not suitable. Proof that children have been on unresearched drugs for years. so that's a justification to keep using unresearched puberty blockers on children now? I despair.

I have always advocated proper counselling and support for children. Can you show me anywhere I haven't?

Children often realise they are gay or lesbian way before puberty, some don't realise until they are much older. I really don't see what that has to do with it. Who has said cross hormones must follow?

You posted that using unresearched drugs on children was wrong. I told you it happened. You asked me for proof. I gave it to you. I at no time used it as justification, simply contradicted your wrongful belief that the trans issue was the only use of such drugs on children. The only reason it has been brought into the thread was because you regard the use of puberty blockers as something extraordinary. It isn't children are put on unresearched drugs all the time. Blaming me for correcting your lack of knowledge is ridiculous. (But I can see why you'd want to do it)

It’s tedious to be constantly and treated as though none of us are aware of the risks associated with drugs like Ritalin. We are parents, grandparents, teachers, social workers. , therapists, camhs workers . Because we don’t share the minority view here doesnt mean we are wrong

I wonder why you are so averse to providing the support some children might benefit from? I'm not at all averse to providing support. It was the trans advocates and allies who asserted only immediate positive affirmation was the correct way to go, and who wanted any type of counselling banned. Now you seem to be advocating counselling.

I don't think we are talking about children who simply don't like going through puberty, only those who know the changes their body will go through, and reject them totally as not who they want to be. but it's only by going through puberty that the majority of children who feel like this will relieve their distress. Many will realise they're gay or lesbians. Stopping natural puberty to follow up with cross sex hormones is not going through an opposite sex puberty, that window of opportunity has gone.

As for the research it is comparatively recent and lists numerous drugs children have been prescribed, some of which are not suitable. Proof that children have been on unresearched drugs for years. so that's a justification to keep using unresearched puberty blockers on children now? I despair.

As for the research it is comparatively recent and lists numerous drugs children have been prescribed, some of which are not suitable. Proof that children have been on unresearched drugs for years.

Rosie51

Glorianny I'd suggest that the two links you provided would indicate the very opposite of little to no research. This is in stark contrast to the mantra of puberty blockers being safe and fully reversible.

if, as some people claim, this is just a stage in development and children will grow out. of it, offering them a respite from the distress they are feeling by postponing the process of puberty and offering them counselling to help would seem to be the best way of dealing with that stage. while this sounds an OK way to go, it is the very process of going through puberty that eventually resolves the distress for the great majority. Delaying it will not help, puberty cannot be switched on and off like a light switch. For how long would you suggest delaying puberty in the circumstance you describe? Who would you have qualify for this delaying treatment, children who felt they were trans or any child who just didn't want to experience it? I don't think I've ever heard a single soul say they enjoyed going through puberty.

I didn't suggest only delaying puberty I was very clear that counselling would be necessary.
I wonder why you are so averse to providing the support some children might benefit from? After all if children are not really trans and only struggling to cope with puberty they could be given support to help with the problems. I don't think we are talking about children who simply don't like going through puberty, only those who know the changes their body will go through, and reject them totally as not who they want to be.

Mollygo

Ritalin was disastrous for a boy I used to teach, though it wasn’t realised till later. Using Ritalin as an excuse for using other future life affecting drugs and surgery is like a sick joke.

I wasn't using anything as an excuse I was replying to a question.
The long term effects of medicating ADHD are unmeasurable.
However I've seen very few protests about it.

And just how did surgery get in there?

Glorianny I'd suggest that the two links you provided would indicate the very opposite of little to no research. This is in stark contrast to the mantra of puberty blockers being safe and fully reversible.

if, as some people claim, this is just a stage in development and children will grow out. of it, offering them a respite from the distress they are feeling by postponing the process of puberty and offering them counselling to help would seem to be the best way of dealing with that stage. while this sounds an OK way to go, it is the very process of going through puberty that eventually resolves the distress for the great majority. Delaying it will not help, puberty cannot be switched on and off like a light switch. For how long would you suggest delaying puberty in the circumstance you describe? Who would you have qualify for this delaying treatment, children who felt they were trans or any child who just didn't want to experience it? I don't think I've ever heard a single soul say they enjoyed going through puberty.

Glorianny

Elegran

Mollygo

Glorianny Are you now saying that all those tomboys were would-be trans? That’s an unreasonable, claim even for you.

And the ex-tomboys on here are affiirming (as are people I know in real life) that they were NOT, in fact, would-be trans but just envious of the boys they knew who did not face the restrictions placed on girls.

I can't answer for anyone I have never met who went on later to want to transition, nor for any GN posters who did and are keeping a low profile - perhaps some transitioned, perhaps after puberty some decided that they were gay and are now in long-term same-sex realationships?

The only GN poster who openly stated that she was trans was MaryXXY - who was one of the comparatively small percentage who were genuinely intersex, but she had decided after being brought up as male to live totally as female. MaryXXY has not posted for some time.

Of course I'm not saying all the tomboys are trans. Quite the reverse I'm saying that if, as some people claim, this is just a stage in development and children will grow out. of it, offering them a respite from the distress they are feeling by postponing the process of puberty and offering them counselling to help would seem to be the best way of dealing with that stage.

Of course it may not be just a stage.

If is is not "just a stage" then finding out exactly what is at the root of it is needed. Starting them routinely onto a route of medication is a risky one. It has been shown that when puberty-delaying drugs are given the children mostly progress to other genderising treatments. (I don't think this applies when it is for developmental early puberty)

What will be, will be, but being too affirmatory too soon to children who don't yet understand the total implications of a life-changing decision would not be in their unterests.

The proposed legislation in Scotland (the consultation opportunity is now ended, so its introduction and ratification is in the hands of the legislators - so anyone who wants their opinion heard should be lobbying MSPs ) would make it a criminal offence to give counsel which is not affirmatory to transition.

Ritalin was disastrous for a boy I used to teach, though it wasn’t realised till later. Using Ritalin as an excuse for using other future life affecting drugs and surgery is like a sick joke.

I am not trans, but I was more than a tomboy. I wanted to be a boy from a very young age and had even chosen the name I wanted to be known by. Even as an adult I have been accused, in the past, of 'thinking like a man', whatever that might mean.

I am incredibly glad that there were no adults around encouraging me to think I might become a boy because my body is that of a female heterosexual, although I have always been very grateful for having small breasts. One of my worries when I was going through puberty was that my breasts would be as large as my mother's. perfectly average sized ones.

Personally, I am glad that the only option for me was to integrate what I was born with rather than seek to medicalise myself to try and convince myself I was physically what i was not.

Many years ago my sister worked for a small heritage organisation where her boss was in a female gay relationship. Her partner, however, always dressed and presented as a man,

Nobody was bothered by it. Going about her ordinary life where her sex was irrelevant, she was seen and treated as a man, as she was in the work and social world she lived in, where everyone knew what the circumstances were.

I think she was far more integrated and accepted than many of those who nowadays seem so determined to make a big song and dance about being trans.

Rosie51

^I can always tell when I've suggested something workable. The denials always include (as a polite term) inaccuracies.^
Are you accusing me of inaccuracy? If so please detail it so I can address your point.

Many children are on powerful drugs which there is little or no research about. wow this is a powerful statement to make. Can you please provide evidence of the many children and the little or no researched drugs they're on?

Here's a paper about the drugs prescribed to children Rosie51
They are ranked in order of their suitability.
evidence.nihr.ac.uk/alert/psychiatric-drugs-given-to-children-and-adolescents-have-been-ranked-in-order-of-safety/

ADHD has been treated with Ritalin in children. There are long term effects for this medication. jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2811812#:~:text=The%20results%20of%20this%20population,was%20higher%20for%20stimulant%20medications.

Caleo
The general public is now at the stage of regarding transition as normal

What a sweeping unevidenced statement, Caleo.

I could equally say that the general public is at the stage of regarding being able to change sex as a lie. It would at least have the element of truth.

Elegran

Mollygo

Glorianny Are you now saying that all those tomboys were would-be trans? That’s an unreasonable, claim even for you.

And the ex-tomboys on here are affiirming (as are people I know in real life) that they were NOT, in fact, would-be trans but just envious of the boys they knew who did not face the restrictions placed on girls.

I can't answer for anyone I have never met who went on later to want to transition, nor for any GN posters who did and are keeping a low profile - perhaps some transitioned, perhaps after puberty some decided that they were gay and are now in long-term same-sex realationships?

The only GN poster who openly stated that she was trans was MaryXXY - who was one of the comparatively small percentage who were genuinely intersex, but she had decided after being brought up as male to live totally as female. MaryXXY has not posted for some time.

Of course I'm not saying all the tomboys are trans. Quite the reverse I'm saying that if, as some people claim, this is just a stage in development and children will grow out. of it, offering them a respite from the distress they are feeling by postponing the process of puberty and offering them counselling to help would seem to be the best way of dealing with that stage.

Of course it may not be just a stage.

Oh yes, they'll have an agenda!