Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Doodledog

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

That is twisting my words, as you are aware. Can you show me where I said anything of the sort, please?

I said that course content should be challenged, but I don't see how students can dictate what should be discussed. If they decide things like that, what are they learning?

I also asked whether the concept of academic freedom was something with which you are familiar, but you have avoided answering, in favour of trying to equate biological realism with Holocaust denial.

Sorry if I misinterpreted
students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone
But it sounded to me like students were not allowed a voice.

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing

I'm puzzled. Did you not mean the bit about course content, but that students should 'have a voice' in whether they get firsts, should tell professional bodies how they prefer to be assessed, and whether the coffee in the JCR is to their taste should be allowed to influence their judgement of the course they're studying?

What has custom and practice in Japan got to do with KS being driven out of her career?

I think it's odd to support free speech for tutors but deny it to students. It happened in the 60s, but I thought we had moved on from "Tutors and your elders are always right" to appreciating the voices of young people. But apparently not.

What has custom and practice in Japan got to do with KS being driven out of her career?
It was more to do with your comment about students accrediting their courses. They have accredited both course and tutor in Japan. Perhaps you need to consider why that would worry you.

What has custom and practice in Japan got to do with KS being driven out of her career?
Nothing. It’s just another diversion. Seems like a useful tactic to avoid admitting anything you don’t like.

Rosie51

^Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing^ presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

I wonder why you had to try presenting the protest the students staged as violent? It began with posters, which the university removed. The students then wore masks to stage a peaceful protest because they feared repercussions from the university.

Glorianny

Doodledog

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

That is twisting my words, as you are aware. Can you show me where I said anything of the sort, please?

I said that course content should be challenged, but I don't see how students can dictate what should be discussed. If they decide things like that, what are they learning?

I also asked whether the concept of academic freedom was something with which you are familiar, but you have avoided answering, in favour of trying to equate biological realism with Holocaust denial.

Sorry if I misinterpreted
students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone
But it sounded to me like students were not allowed a voice.

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing

I'm puzzled. Did you not mean the bit about course content, but that students should 'have a voice' in whether they get firsts, should tell professional bodies how they prefer to be assessed, and whether the coffee in the JCR is to their taste should be allowed to influence their judgement of the course they're studying?

What has custom and practice in Japan got to do with KS being driven out of her career?

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing presumably they did that politely, not anonymously, dressed head to toe in black, masked up and spraying pink over a university building? Did they also tell her what they were prepared to learn and what they weren't?

Doodledog

*I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.*

That is twisting my words, as you are aware. Can you show me where I said anything of the sort, please?

I said that course content should be challenged, but I don't see how students can dictate what should be discussed. If they decide things like that, what are they learning?

I also asked whether the concept of academic freedom was something with which you are familiar, but you have avoided answering, in favour of trying to equate biological realism with Holocaust denial.

Sorry if I misinterpreted
students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone
But it sounded to me like students were not allowed a voice.

Incidentally students in Japan have evaluated the staff teaching them for. many years. Over 20 years ago I knew an EFL teacher who was most surprised when her Japanese students handed her evaluations at the end of the course. It was what they were used to doing

I neither made, nor feel it appropriate, nor would ever to suggest comparisons in my post above!

Glorianny

Doodledog

The reality of working in a student driven environment is disturbing for many academics. They simply have to put up with things. It has its advantages and disadvantages.
Thank you for those words of wisdom 😂

In your haste to teach me to suck eggs you have forgotten to say what you think about academic freedom, though. Or whether you can name a trans-unfriendly university.

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

I don't know all about all UK universities, but here are two transpeople who think academia doesn't support transpeople. Perhaps their experiences count? www.thepinknews.com/2021/11/03/kathleen-stock-trans-university-transphobia/

The reality of studying where they are small fish in a big pond may be disturbing to young people who have enjoyed being big fish in their small school puddle, but they simply have to put up eventually with meeting people with a lot more experience of the world than they do.

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

That is twisting my words, as you are aware. Can you show me where I said anything of the sort, please?

I said that course content should be challenged, but I don't see how students can dictate what should be discussed. If they decide things like that, what are they learning?

I also asked whether the concept of academic freedom was something with which you are familiar, but you have avoided answering, in favour of trying to equate biological realism with Holocaust denial.

Elegran

There is one proviso I would make if a Holocaust denier were to want to speak, and that is that there must be a lengthy question-and-answer session after the talk, which the speaker would attend every minute of. I would then make sure that the talk, and the opportunity to join in the subsequent discussion, were widely publicised, including to the people likely to have strong views on the subject.

It would probably be advisable to warn the police in advance, and to have some burly "ushers" in attendance.

And if a Jewish student came and said her great grandparent's died in Auschwitz and she didn't want anyone to be allowed to diminish their deaths, so she was organising a student protest, would it still go ahead?

Elegran

There is one proviso I would make if a Holocaust denier were to want to speak, and that is that there must be a lengthy question-and-answer session after the talk, which the speaker would attend every minute of. I would then make sure that the talk, and the opportunity to join in the subsequent discussion, were widely publicised, including to the people likely to have strong views on the subject.

It would probably be advisable to warn the police in advance, and to have some burly "ushers" in attendance.

Agreed, Elegran. All points of view should be debated. Shining a light on such matters shows how indefensible they are. No Debate is not how students learn - only allowing certain perspectives is indoctrination.

Doodledog

*The reality of working in a student driven environment is disturbing for many academics. They simply have to put up with things. It has its advantages and disadvantages.*
Thank you for those words of wisdom 😂

In your haste to teach me to suck eggs you have forgotten to say what you think about academic freedom, though. Or whether you can name a trans-unfriendly university.

I wasn't teaching you anything Doodledog just replying to your comment about how awful it is that students have a voice.

I don't know all about all UK universities, but here are two transpeople who think academia doesn't support transpeople. Perhaps their experiences count? www.thepinknews.com/2021/11/03/kathleen-stock-trans-university-transphobia/

Are you saying that biological realists who say that women are adult human females are equivalent to Holocaust deniers?

I know you are given to hyperbole, but surely that's a stretch.

There is one proviso I would make if a Holocaust denier were to want to speak, and that is that there must be a lengthy question-and-answer session after the talk, which the speaker would attend every minute of. I would then make sure that the talk, and the opportunity to join in the subsequent discussion, were widely publicised, including to the people likely to have strong views on the subject.

It would probably be advisable to warn the police in advance, and to have some burly "ushers" in attendance.

Oreo

I think things started to go wrong with all the ‘safe space’ crap and the idea that students have to be protected. As if they were 5 years old.Then came the idea that students shouldn’t hear anything that may upset them or differ from their own way of thinking on any given subject. Idiocy that never should have been given in to.

So would you allow someone who was a holocaust denier to speak? Or are there sections of the population you consider worthy of protection?

Wyllow3

Following up from the Cass report there should have been a realistic resources review. If a young person is treated within CAMHS becausee of lack of resources in the gender field and there is a proper decision made by all for referral at 18 for gender reassignment discussions imagine being told - oh, but by the way, there is now a waiting list of 2 to 6 years - I can understand why - sometimes - anger and feeling there are anti-trans forces at work could be an outcome which can turn political.

There should already be a realistic resources review for all the increasing number of mental health problems among children, and incidentally among adults, particularly females.
I wouldn’t suggest trans issues should be any further down any list of those desperate for support, but are you saying they deserve preferential treatment?
Being told there is a waiting list isn’t just to do with trans. E.g. being told that females are less deserving of places in a newly built mental health facility than men and therefore females will be housed in facilities at a greater distance from their homes.

I think things started to go wrong with all the ‘safe space’ crap and the idea that students have to be protected. As if they were 5 years old.Then came the idea that students shouldn’t hear anything that may upset them or differ from their own way of thinking on any given subject. Idiocy that never should have been given in to.

Oreo

The university of sussex has always been a maverick university attracting all kinds of weird people and ideologies.
Lunatics running the asylum comes to mind if students are able to pick and choose lecturers on the basis of thinking along the same lines.

Thank you, Oreo. I can't for the life of me see the point of someone spending £9k a year (and these days so many people see education in terms of a cost/benefit analysis) if they are only willing to listen to their own views parroted back to them. they may as well stay at home.

The reality of working in a student driven environment is disturbing for many academics. They simply have to put up with things. It has its advantages and disadvantages.
Thank you for those words of wisdom 😂

In your haste to teach me to suck eggs you have forgotten to say what you think about academic freedom, though. Or whether you can name a trans-unfriendly university.

Following up from the Cass report there should have been a realistic resources review. If a young person is treated within CAMHS becausee of lack of resources in the gender field and there is a proper decision made by all for referral at 18 for gender reassignment discussions imagine being told - oh, but by the way, there is now a waiting list of 2 to 6 years - I can understand why - sometimes - anger and feeling there are anti-trans forces at work could be an outcome which can turn political.

Doodledog 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

The university of sussex has always been a maverick university attracting all kinds of weird people and ideologies.
Lunatics running the asylum comes to mind if students are able to pick and choose lecturers on the basis of thinking along the same lines.

Doodledog

Glorianny

Galaxy

I know imagine there being a variety of views at a university, how traumatizing. You have just described her as trying to be relevant then listed some quite impressive achievements.
All those who were trying to raise the alarm were called nazis, far right, received numerous threats etc.

If students don't like someone now they are paying for their courses they can say so loudly. The concept of not listening to them is irreconcilable with the actuality. They can withdraw and take the money with them.
She chose a trans-friendly university then spouted anti-trans theory. She knew what she was doing.
She has benefitted from their opposition, but to stay relevant she needs to challenge more- hence her views on this report

What is the difference between someone lecturing on their area of expertise, and someone 'spouting'? Do men 'spout', or is that yet another sexist jibe?

As for a 'trans-friendly university' - can you name one that is not? What does the concept of academic freedom mean to you, if anything? And what is the point of a student being able to dictate the terms and content of courses? They are there to learn, not to tell staff what to think. They can challenge, by all means, but not dictate.

Universities already have to deal with 'helicopter parents', students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone'? Basically just buy a degree, as 'they are paying for their courses'?

And then people moan that degrees aren't worth what they used to be🙄🙄

Of course men "spout".

The reality of working in a student driven environment is disturbing for many academics. They simply have to put up with things. It has its advantages and disadvantages. Sussex students said they were an anonymous, unaffiliated group of queer, trans and non-binary students who will not allow our community to be slandered and harmed by someone who's [sic] salary comes from our pockets

The University of Sussex was amongst the first to offer a Gender Studies course. Stock wasn't part of that department. Not surprisingly there was a lot of upset when she chose to produce her book.

Universities are what they are.

I dont know what is going on with autism either, we are all saying improved awareness, better diagnosis etc, I really hope we arent missing something. I know anecdote is not helpful but the children I am seeing at work arent ones who could have slipped by unnoticed.

Glorianny

Galaxy

I know imagine there being a variety of views at a university, how traumatizing. You have just described her as trying to be relevant then listed some quite impressive achievements.
All those who were trying to raise the alarm were called nazis, far right, received numerous threats etc.

If students don't like someone now they are paying for their courses they can say so loudly. The concept of not listening to them is irreconcilable with the actuality. They can withdraw and take the money with them.
She chose a trans-friendly university then spouted anti-trans theory. She knew what she was doing.
She has benefitted from their opposition, but to stay relevant she needs to challenge more- hence her views on this report

What is the difference between someone lecturing on their area of expertise, and someone 'spouting'? Do men 'spout', or is that yet another sexist jibe?

As for a 'trans-friendly university' - can you name one that is not? What does the concept of academic freedom mean to you, if anything? And what is the point of a student being able to dictate the terms and content of courses? They are there to learn, not to tell staff what to think. They can challenge, by all means, but not dictate.

Universities already have to deal with 'helicopter parents', students who are scared of not getting Firsts, NSS scores driving viability of courses, students wanting to opt out of assessments they find difficult, balancing that with the needs of the professional bodies the same students want to accredit their courses, and now you are saying that they should be able to shout down the staff teaching them and have them removed if 'they don't like someone'? Basically just buy a degree, as 'they are paying for their courses'?

And then people moan that degrees aren't worth what they used to be🙄🙄