Dr. Hilary Cass - report re trans.

But there is zero evidence as to what is in the best interest because of the lack of research into the interventions they were so enthusiastically following. In any other field there would have been some professional curiosity in the surge in numbers of girls for a start.

Yes, for Primary Schools social transition is out, but even then its not simple:

"“Schools and colleges are expected to follow all guidance issued by the Government, whether it is statutory or not. “Our guidance is clear that in nearly every case schools should not support the social transition of primary aged children, including not using pronouns that do not align with the child's sex.”"

It's that "nearly every case" as it throws back the responsibility onto schools who frankly must be reeling in confusion about what to do"

ie

"nearly every case" (define?)

"only partial transition" (meaning what?"

If teachers are to follow the spirit of Cass, which is people being treated holistically, as individuals, according to need and circumstances, then there has to be this measure of flexibility for whatever is in the young persons best interests.

Glorianny

I wonder how many teens and pre-teens will simply hide their social transitioning from their parents and other adults?Just like shortening your skirt or putting your make up on out of sight of disapproving adults has always happened, will they now be one gender at home and add the changes they need to present as another when they go out? I'm not sure that is helpful to any family relationships.

I think that is very possible. Children try on different ways of being all the time. I mentioned subcultural groups recently (not sure whether on this thread or another) and you had a dig, but this is not dissimilar, is it?

Some children grow out of their assumed identities, others don't. But telling a child that because they liked something at 7, or at 13 they must continue to do so for life is surely irresponsible in the extreme?

I have often heard women say that as children they wanted to be a boy because they liked climbing trees and playing football. To me, those things are nothing to do with sex, gender or anything other than being a child. They may have been told by adults back then that these were boyish activities, but that was because of the gender stereotypes of the day. It was obviously very commonplace for girls to enjoy tree climbing and football, as so many bring them up as examples.

I don't know what it is that makes today's children feel that they are 'in the wrong body', but I'm sure it will be something that in 40 years' time will seem equally dated and stereotyped. Condemning young children to a lifetime of hormones and more on the basis of what will, for many, be a passing fad - however deeply felt - is cruel, and I am delighted that this has been recognised by the Cass report.

As for familial relationships, in many ways it is healthy for them to be difficult for a time. As children become young adults it is necessary for them to separate from their parents and be themselves. They need to reject at least some of their parents' values in order to be sure that the ones they hang on to are shared, and that others are their own. I don't see that as unhelpful.

Yes I think that's a really good point eazybee, there appears to have been an appalling lack of research/follow up for children with gender dysphoria, but I am not aware of any research on what happens to children who were forced to pretend something they knew wasnt true.

Its particularly for younger children (primary age) that they dont recommend social transition, I think the cass report is recommending a health professional to explain risks if the parents insist, I am guessing this will be to avoid litigation which I imagine is on the way.
I think it's important as well (although this isnt nhs remit at all) to challenge the stereotypes, a girl with short hair is just that a girl with short hair. Your hair length is irrelevant to your sex.

Define respect.
Do you see respect as a two way process, or is it only trans who should have their rights respected?
e.g.
Do you agree that children (or anyone) should have the right to compel others to use words or terminology they know are lies, for fear of punishment?
The above greatly concerns me. Where is the protection for staff dealing with these children? Are they allowed choice in dealing with thee demands or are they to be sacked for gross incompetence?

Ah, found this from 2 days ago:

"More generally, should social transitions be undertaken, the review recommended only a partial, rather than complete, social transition, especially for younger children, noting how many children currently live in fear of being “found out.”

Which really doesn't clarify anything, does it?.

The NHS have moved from the socially affirmation model, they began this after the publication of the interim cass report.

Galaxy

What does that even mean. If you mean the right to social transition, that is against NHS guidance.

"What is the NHS guidance on social transition?

Involve parents before pupils 'socially transition' at school, says NHS England. Schools should not allow gender-questioning children to “socially transition” without their parents' involvement, according to NHS training and guidance on how staff should respond to pupils exploring their gender identity.

There is no guidance on outside school.

Caleo

Mollygo wrote:

"----I could identify as rich and want to live a life that reflects that wish. Until and unless I take what doesn’t belong to me in order to maintain my chosen identity I have the right to make my choice."

I agree with you on principle and thanks for the insight.

Would you agree that all children including trans children should have equal rights to self determination and respect in clinics and schools

Define equal rights.
Are you asking for something that denies other children’s rights in order to accommodate trans children’s rights?

Define children. What age(s)?

Do you agree that young children should have the right to decide to harm their bodies irrevocably by surgery or drugs when they don’t understand the future they are laying out for themselves?

Do you agree that parents have the right to encourage their children to take such irrevocable steps when their children are too young to understand what this means for their future?

Define respect.
Do you see respect as a two way process, or is it only trans who should have their rights respected?
e.g.
Do you agree that children (or anyone) should have the right to compel others to use words or terminology they know are lies, for fear of punishment?

I think its entirely possible that the following would make social transition more likely

To address a question raised previously: Gender clinics,(unless in the private or charitable sector) are all funded by Mental Health money.
This is a historical decision and could have been tainted by the long ago assumption that gay people are mentally ill and need treatment - ie therefore any gender issue...etc etc...

Locally it's not available until 18, and there is a 6 year waiting list.
There are 11 gender clinics available in England fr 17/18 or over. The one local to me is 18 and there is a 6 year waiting list.

Young people:
The 2 new GIDS clinics have waiting lists of 5000 young people situated in London and Manchester.

Obvious conclusion: there are not the resources to give what is undoubtedly a valid and in depth holistic approach to those seeking transition or needing to talk about it as a possibility.

In this vacuum people are far more likely to experiment with social transitioning and seek out support groups/self help groups (which there also are locally, given a 6 year waiting list).

I suppose it will happen, just as some hide their sexuality but I don't see how this report would make more do so.

I wonder how many teens and pre-teens will simply hide their social transitioning from their parents and other adults?Just like shortening your skirt or putting your make up on out of sight of disapproving adults has always happened, will they now be one gender at home and add the changes they need to present as another when they go out? I'm not sure that is helpful to any family relationships.

So what does the Cass report say about social transitioning?
Its an issue faced by parents and schools and anyone working with young people without adequate guidance.

JaneJudge

I looked it up and it can include some or all of
"Changing your name, either socially or by legally notifying the government. Choosing to use different pronouns than you did before. Making “surface” changes to your physical appearance like changing how you dress, style your hair, and binding, packing, tucking, or padding to shift your gender presentation."

For children that is.

So using pronouns, etc agreeing they are the other gender, the cass report is saying its not a neutral act.

What does social transition mean?

What does that even mean. If you mean the right to social transition, that is against NHS guidance.

There's no one here that I've seen who doesn't want trans people to be supported, but that support should not include impinging on the rights of women, and for the very young to be encouraged and/or supported in making life changing decisions too soon

?

Mollygo wrote:

"----I could identify as rich and want to live a life that reflects that wish. Until and unless I take what doesn’t belong to me in order to maintain my chosen identity I have the right to make my choice."

I agree with you on principle and thanks for the insight.

Would you agree that all children including trans children should have equal rights to self determination and respect in clinics and schools

Rosie wrote:

"Until relatively recently in the scale of time there were no artificial hormones or surgeries to give these people and yet they managed to live their lives without having to compel other's speech or behaviour. They lived alongside everybody else peacefully, just quietly going about their business."

Trans people are simply people and there probably are some bossy trans people, but there is no reason to presume all trans people want others to change their life styles. We just want others to help us to transition which is at the present time we find sometimes to be embarrassing and even dangerous.

Callistemon: "Gender".

This still puzzles me and I try to understand. I thought gender referred to performing traditionally feminine or masculine roles. I wrote to Rosie "sex" not "gender" because Rosie had written about physiology not simply performance.

At one time I'd have agreed with you .The advances in plastic surgery and hormone intervention make me wonder if trans gender has morphed into trans sex.

I can't identify as a dog though. Or a cat, although some people do.

A dog has 78 chromosomes (39 pairs).
A cat has 38 chromosomes (19 pairs).

Caleo

Rosie, I believe it is your human right and your privilege to say what sex you want to present yourself as , or no category at all if you so please.

Gender.