Five Bulgarian nationals plead guilty to falsely claiming Universal Credit over five years and storing wads of cash in ‘fraud factories’.

Incidentally, I am well aware of the difference between picking up a few words in a foreign language and being a fluent or (near) fluent speaker. I also know about understanding forms in a foreign language.

What's the point of this? Whatever their language skills, these fraudsters aren't stupid and somehow or other had understand the loopholes in the claiming benefits, which would mean having a good grasp of information requested on forms.

Just checked the stats by the way. 12.5% of people in Bulgaria speak English as a first language. About 98% learn English in school - some of them will have almost native proficiency.

growstuff

Incidentally, I am well aware of the difference between picking up a few words in a foreign language and being a fluent or (near) fluent speaker. I also know about understanding forms in a foreign language.

What's the point of this? Whatever their language skills, these fraudsters aren't stupid and somehow or other had understand the loopholes in the claiming benefits, which would mean having a good grasp of information requested on forms.

What's the point of this? Whatever their language skills, these fraudsters aren't stupid and somehow or other had understand the loopholes in the claiming benefits, which would mean having a good grasp of information requested on forms.

When I first arrived in Norway to take on a new job - I didn't speak Norwegian - but fairly quickly learned to navigate the company's in-house systems and computers, and began to 'grasp' the language. So you are right - you absorb what you need to know - only in my case of course it was legit.

Another poster on here (forgot who) lived in Bulgaria so will know the prevalence of English-speaking natives. I only visited the country, briefly, but found quite a few who appeared to have a basic grasp of English.

Don't the DWP deal with those who are not native English speaking individuals anyway - presumably they are used to the possible incorrect grammar or speech if they are communicating verbally?

If these criminals are intent on fraud and know how to find loopholes, I don't think a lack of fluent English would be too much of an obstacle. I sometimes have to complete forms for the Norwegian and Swedish authorities, when I'm stuck, Google Translate is a great help. Where there's a will there's a way and these bloody criminals certainly have the will.

I agree with you Dickens. Until recently, my partner worked part-time for the University of Oslo. He received all sorts of paperwork from the Norwegian tax authorities, none of which did he understand to begin with. He didn't have a clue how the Norwegian tax system worked either. Apparently, he used OCR software to scan the documents and ran them through Google translate. By the time I knew him, he'd taught himself a fair amount of Norwegian and could understand the tax documents without resorting to translation apps.

I'm still not sure what language skills have to do with the fraud. They knew what they needed to know.

... They knew what they needed to know.

Precisely!

keepingquiet

At least they didn't pile up their ill gotten cash in the Cayman islands for tax dodging purposes. Wake up to the real criminals please.

I must say that this made me laugh. I know that the poster doesn't approve of the fraud under discussion but I was picturing an organised criminal gang scrupulously filling in their tax returns. As has been oft repeated on here, tax avoidance may, in some cases, be morally questionable but it is legal.

Parsley3

keepingquiet

At least they didn't pile up their ill gotten cash in the Cayman islands for tax dodging purposes. Wake up to the real criminals please.

I must say that this made me laugh. I know that the poster doesn't approve of the fraud under discussion but I was picturing an organised criminal gang scrupulously filling in their tax returns. As has been oft repeated on here, tax avoidance may, in some cases, be morally questionable but it is legal.

As has been oft repeated on here, tax avoidance may, in some cases, be morally questionable but it is legal.

And how many of us have got ISAs?
Tax avoidance is not tax evasion.

Tax avoidance is not cheating the system and stealing millions from taxpayers. It is not a criminal offence.

growstuff

I agree with you Dickens. Until recently, my partner worked part-time for the University of Oslo. He received all sorts of paperwork from the Norwegian tax authorities, none of which did he understand to begin with. He didn't have a clue how the Norwegian tax system worked either. Apparently, he used OCR software to scan the documents and ran them through Google translate. By the time I knew him, he'd taught himself a fair amount of Norwegian and could understand the tax documents without resorting to translation apps.

I'm still not sure what language skills have to do with the fraud. They knew what they needed to know.

FGS!!!!! It proves that the benefits system is in need of a serious overhaul because it is too easy to defraud. It should be watertight!

Has the penny dropped yet?

I agree, Callistemon

Well I remember David Cameron proudly announcing how many “pen pushers” he planned to get rid of.

Primrose53

growstuff

I agree with you Dickens. Until recently, my partner worked part-time for the University of Oslo. He received all sorts of paperwork from the Norwegian tax authorities, none of which did he understand to begin with. He didn't have a clue how the Norwegian tax system worked either. Apparently, he used OCR software to scan the documents and ran them through Google translate. By the time I knew him, he'd taught himself a fair amount of Norwegian and could understand the tax documents without resorting to translation apps.

I'm still not sure what language skills have to do with the fraud. They knew what they needed to know.

FGS!!!!! It proves that the benefits system is in need of a serious overhaul because it is too easy to defraud. It should be watertight!

Has the penny dropped yet?

FGS!!!!! It proves that the benefits system is in need of a serious overhaul because it is too easy to defraud. It should be watertight!

Has the penny dropped yet?

Wow - that's a bit rude...

For the average claimant I suspect it is not that easy to defraud the system. When it was set-up, the issue of fraud would've been a consideration. However, determined and 'clever' fraudsters can hack even the most sophisticated network.

The matter of language skills under discussion is because some posters appear to believe that a lack of fluency in the English language would be an obstacle preventing these Bulgarians from defrauding the benefit system, which as has been demonstrated by examples, is clearly not the case. If ordinary mortals like myself and growstuff's partner can navigate their way around foreign admin structures then obviously fluency in its language is not that much of a problem.

Whatever their language skills, these fraudsters aren't stupid and somehow or other had understand the loopholes in the claiming benefits, which would mean having a good grasp of information requested on forms

Totally agree growstuff. We could do with some of them turning from poacher to gamekeeper. Help the UK DWP become more aware about stricter checks and balances.

tickingbird, do you have any more information on the EU high up who said we should deter all these immigrants by not being so generous?

Because, frankly it sounds like racist nonsense to me.

I recall years ago Juncker saying it to Cameron.

I remember somebody, possibly a French or German Minister saying something along those lines zakouma66 quite a few years ago.Don’t know if it was a EU high up.

Oreo

I remember somebody, possibly a French or German Minister saying something along those lines zakouma66 quite a few years ago.Don’t know if it was a EU high up.

If it was Juncker, you couldn’t get much higher up.
TBH he was one of the reasons I had to hold my nose while voting Remain.

TBH he was one of the reasons I had to hold my nose while voting Remain.
Indeed!

Amazing really. When my friend's daughter graduated and was back home looking for a job, she had to take 3 buses, costing £8.50, to sign on fortnightly to claim about £35 pw.

That’s the norm leeds22. Fraudsters know how to defraud on. Big scale, or fiddle on a smaller one
Decent ordinary people struggle

The fact that forged/fake documents are far easier to obtain in some countries also plays a part. If birth certificates for non existent children are produced and the births ‘recorded’ in a foreign country it is probably harder for the DWP to check up.

I have a friend who works for the DWP and is in a department that deals with appeals/tribunals and often attends courts. She has told me about Romanian gangs moving children around the UK claiming benefits, working tax credits etc. A long time before this case she told me of gangs coming in with the sole purpose of defrauding the benefits system.

Seeing the video on the news of a woman picking up wads of cash being thrown on the floor of a flat sickened me. I assume it was a video found when the premises were raided.

I also support ID cards having previously been against the idea.

Because, frankly it sounds like racist nonsense to me.

Well it would to you wouldn’t it? Are you calling me a liar Zakouma66

Dickens when I reply to people I do so in the same manner as they talk to me. In this case growstuff said “what a load of *!

So I don’t consider my reply of “has the penny dropped yet?” to be even the slightest bit rude. 🙂

Took my 35 years of trying to get disability benefits when my health got worse in 1988. I was born disabled. Only got PIP because of the Brain Charity getting me a solicitor pro bono and going to a tribunal end of August 2023 after I applied for PIP March 2022 and given zero on everything after phone assessment. Because of the solicitor who worked for me from July 2022 that she said I could apply for universal credit. After my interview at job centre my caseworker said it would be phone appointments as she didn't want me going in again and applied for the can't remember the exact title but the health UC. Had face to face appointment as I didn't trust phone assessments I got it.

I was born with a rare hereditary neurological condition which effects my mobility plus a hole in my heart. PIP people's treated me like dirt but the UC people treated me with kindness .

No idea how these people got away with it for so long . This isn't racist as I am not but I know lots of cases of people of all racial backgrounds who are born here or come through proper channels who work paid their taxes and NI contributions for years and through illness needed help but refused it .

Think there must be courses in other countries of how the milk the system here. Problem is things like PIP are out sourced and assessed by people who have no idea what they are doing.

Before I got UC I was frightened to have my heating on. Both UC will stop end of this month when I get my full state pension and have my PIP enhanced for both mobility and living. The tribunal back dated my award to when I applied for PIP and the judge apologised for the way I had been treated.

The benefits system has been broken through various governments and I can't see it getting any better.

We are supposed to be a first world country and yet food banks are needed all the more. Parents go without so their children can have a meal countless older people and the disabled are frightened to have heating on because of the high bills . Countless have died because of not getting medical help because the NHS is stretched to it limits . Plus those who have to pay for prescriptions unless they have a yearly subscription can't afford what they need. I know if I didn't have my yearly subscription I couldn't have afford the amount of tablets I have to take . Thankfully prescriptions became free once I reached 60 .

I can't see the system getting any better and more cases of fraud is going to increase .

But this is my own view and experience.

After reading all the above my mind returned to the post which reminded us of Cameron cutting "pen pushers".

The huge difficulties individuals who are entitled to benefits experience points to an understaffed system that isn't coping well, never mind cracking major fraud issues. These are easier to do when there is inadequate oversight.

You can’t blame them wanting a better life, can you? We are the 5th largest economy so we can well afford for these poor vulnerable people to taste affluence.