Scottish Greens expel 13 members for declaring “sex is a biological reality”.

Not Scotland, maybe just Scottish politicians.

Blackwit

I’m new to this, but hopefully I won’t mess things up.
Frankly I think both parties are wrong. Sex is not absolute - there are several reasons for being intersex whether chromosomal/indeterminate genitalia. There are birds with male and female feathers - such is life. Until now people have had no choice about their sex, it’s predetermined by the medical profession at birth & enforced by law.
What is needed is a discussion about how we relate to all people, not signing declarations against intersex people or expelling those who disagree with acceptance.
I remember Prof Alice Roberts in one of her books saying that we will probably need several gender identities to encompass all humanity.
This issue does remind me of the controversy over gay rights in 1988 (clause 28) and we seem to have moved on without the sky falling in.

Frankly I think both parties are wrong. Sex is not absolute - there are several reasons for being intersex whether chromosomal/indeterminate genitalia.

Can I respectfully point out that - as you will see if you read various threads on this matter - we are not, generally, talking about people who are born with indeterminate sex. Such individuals make up about 1.7% of the global population. They are not the point of this debate.

We are debating men - frequently with full male genitalia - who demand that we believe they become women on the basis of their mental and emotional identity, and should therefore be allowed in our changing rooms, and other intimate spaces. Not to mention sports competitions.

And sex is not predetermined by the medical profession, it is recognised by them at birth. Unless they are of indeterminate sex which, as I said, is not what we are debating.

What is needed is a discussion about how we relate to all people, not signing declarations against intersex people or expelling those who disagree with acceptance.

When anyone who does not concede that transwomen are women are barred from debate, by cancelling their visits, no-platforming them, or directing abuse and threats towards them (JK Rowling), then it's hard to see how we can have this discussion.

Again, you have interwoven intersex people into this - it is not at all what we are discussing here.

And people with a dsd are not some magical third sex, it is generally possible to determine if they are Male or female.
Oh and as someone who spent 10 years in the HIV field, I can promise it is absolutely nothing like past views on gay issues.

Oreo

If Sophie Molly has all the male bits in place then Joanna Cherry can be honest and say that.A transwoman is a transwoman is the real answer.

Yes but that’s not what he wants.

Blackwit

I’m new to this, but hopefully I won’t mess things up.
Frankly I think both parties are wrong. Sex is not absolute - there are several reasons for being intersex whether chromosomal/indeterminate genitalia. There are birds with male and female feathers - such is life. Until now people have had no choice about their sex, it’s predetermined by the medical profession at birth & enforced by law.
What is needed is a discussion about how we relate to all people, not signing declarations against intersex people or expelling those who disagree with acceptance.
I remember Prof Alice Roberts in one of her books saying that we will probably need several gender identities to encompass all humanity.
This issue does remind me of the controversy over gay rights in 1988 (clause 28) and we seem to have moved on without the sky falling in.

Sex is absolute. There are two sexes, male and female, and anyone born with indeterminate genitalia is still either male or female, there is no third sex. A simple cheek swab will determine anybody's sex which is immutable in all mammals including humans. We are not clownfish, nor birds. Our sex is determined at the moment of conception, no medical professional or lawyers present, nature does it all by itself. Our sex at conception is the same sex the moment we die, and no legal fiction can change that.

What is needed is a discussion about how we relate to all people, not signing declarations against intersex people or expelling those who disagree with acceptance. the declaration was nothing to do with people with DSDs. It was simply stating that sex is a biological reality and nobody can change their biological sex. Single sex spaces exist for a reason, and allowing any male who declares himself a woman the right to enter those spaces immediately renders them mixed sex.
This issue is nothing like the gay rights struggle. No gay or bisexual male was demanding to enter female spaces, enter female sporting competitions, take awards designated as being for females, serve a prison sentence in a female prison etc etc. Gay rights wanted equal treatment not preferential treatment. Equal gay rights did not impinge on anybody else's rights at all.

Maremia

Mollygo, what do I feel about the actual topic under discussion? My instinct is to reject anything that appears to be men bullying women, or imposing their beliefs/systems on them. It has taken millennia for women to achieve the levels of autonomy we experience in the UK just now. We can see from other cultures that this can change very quickly. I grieve for the women of Afghanistan and Iran.
I will listen to and try to sympathize, and help if I can, people in distress, for reasons outwith their control, but the minute they try to assert their rights over mine, I will fight back.
That's a bit of a 'gut' reaction there, nothing intellectual or cultural about it, but that's how I feel. And you did ask.

That isn’t what I asked, but that’s okay. You aren’t the only poster who prefers to answer the question they wish had been asked rather than the question that was asked.

What’s being Green got to do with being gay, lesbian, trans or whatever?

Well said Rosie51.

Of course my answer is fine, Mollygo. This is Gransnet, not Nicholas Parsons' 'Just a Minute'. If we had to stick to those rules, the threads on here would be sooooo much shorter, and not nearly as interesting.

Maremia

Of course my answer is fine, Mollygo. This is Gransnet, not Nicholas Parsons' 'Just a Minute'. If we had to stick to those rules, the threads on here would be sooooo much shorter, and not nearly as interesting.

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