Anybody else who doesn't know who to vote for?

Sometimes you are so way off on your analysis of what’s happening with the voting public Germanshepherdsmum that I think you must live in a little protected Tory bubble.
Here’s the analysis from the 2019 election when of course the Tories did very well. Yet still, middle class Labour and Lib Dem voters together were greater than Tory voters, and 30% voted Labour. The biggest party vote determinant was age, across all social groups.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50543903

Germanshepherdsmum

You are not, I think, what I perceive to be a typical Labour voter Cossy. I hold my hands up to not really knowing anyone who votes Labour. Maybe the delivery drivers and the ladies who serve me in local shops are dyed in the wool Labour supporters but it’s not exactly what you discuss in passing. My perception comes from what I read on GN (the only social media I use) and from ‘ordinary’ people I see interviewed on tv. Those interviewed seem to have a fraction of your intelligence.

My flabber is gasted!

Freya5

Germanshepherdsmum

Cossy

I think it’s pretty obvious that any taxes, direct or otherwise, are going to be levelled at are wealthiest citizens, whether one feels this is fair or not, it’s the whole basis of socialism. It’s Labour’s version of “levelling up” and they’ve never made a secret of this.

I’m still waiting though for the benefits of austerity and Brexit and the results and outcome of “levelling up”, or did I blink and miss it all

I wonder what you (and Labour) class as ‘wealthy’?

Well obviously its us pensioners.
Rachel Reeves , in her lack of wisdom, has got on her Team a certain Sir Edward Troupe, supposedly to help tackle tax avoidance. He's previously called for sweeping tax changes, that codger pensioners should face higher taxes, be stripped of free TV licences, well the beeb obviously listened to him, and did just that,while continuing to fund Lineker and the like to the tune of millions in pay. He called us an "undertaxed generation who have had it ridiculously good". "We should be looking at the codgers" were his words. Bet he didn't earn 40 quid a month, half taken out for rent. Despicable man, that's the trouble with Labour, the politics of envy. So be careful what you wish for.

Sir Edward Troup was at one time Ken Clarke's special advisor, when he was the Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Rachel Reeves has possibly been very astute in appointing him. Maybe she's setting a thief to catch a thief. He probably knows more than most about tax avoidance.

Germanshepherdsmum

You are not, I think, what I perceive to be a typical Labour voter Cossy. I hold my hands up to not really knowing anyone who votes Labour. Maybe the delivery drivers and the ladies who serve me in local shops are dyed in the wool Labour supporters but it’s not exactly what you discuss in passing. My perception comes from what I read on GN (the only social media I use) and from ‘ordinary’ people I see interviewed on tv. Those interviewed seem to have a fraction of your intelligence.

I don’t really know what to make of that to be honest. Do you mean that the riffraff that vote Labour are generally a bit dim? And are always working class?

You are not, I think, what I perceive to be a typical Labour voter Cossy. I hold my hands up to not really knowing anyone who votes Labour. Maybe the delivery drivers and the ladies who serve me in local shops are dyed in the wool Labour supporters but it’s not exactly what you discuss in passing. My perception comes from what I read on GN (the only social media I use) and from ‘ordinary’ people I see interviewed on tv. Those interviewed seem to have a fraction of your intelligence.

Freya5

The LP isn’t the party of envy, nor are their supporters! Personally I’m filled with admiration for people who make great careers against all the odds, without the advantage of a public school education and a leg-up from the “old boys network” You insult all socialist who support equality, equal chances in life. What one then chooses to do with that equal chance is an entirely different story. There will always be those who work hard and those who don’t and they exist within all political persuasions, as does envy!

14:41Casdon

Yes and look how that turned out. I don't do homework (I have got a life) I just post what I think and feel. I personally think Blair is pulling Starmer's strings but Blair did have charisma whereas Starmer is like a cardboard cutout.

Germanshepherdsmum

Cossy

I think it’s pretty obvious that any taxes, direct or otherwise, are going to be levelled at are wealthiest citizens, whether one feels this is fair or not, it’s the whole basis of socialism. It’s Labour’s version of “levelling up” and they’ve never made a secret of this.

I’m still waiting though for the benefits of austerity and Brexit and the results and outcome of “levelling up”, or did I blink and miss it all

I wonder what you (and Labour) class as ‘wealthy’?

Well obviously its us pensioners.
Rachel Reeves , in her lack of wisdom, has got on her Team a certain Sir Edward Troupe, supposedly to help tackle tax avoidance. He's previously called for sweeping tax changes, that codger pensioners should face higher taxes, be stripped of free TV licences, well the beeb obviously listened to him, and did just that,while continuing to fund Lineker and the like to the tune of millions in pay. He called us an "undertaxed generation who have had it ridiculously good". "We should be looking at the codgers" were his words. Bet he didn't earn 40 quid a month, half taken out for rent. Despicable man, that's the trouble with Labour, the politics of envy. So be careful what you wish for.

Thank you. As I know you did.

Greyisnotmycolour

Well GSM it was your choice to put greed above anything else.

Unpleasant. GSM was trying to improve her circumstances. As we all should.

I agree, winterwhite. Brexit has been and still is the elephant in the room. I guess it's because it's just too painful.

Thanks, WWM2. Much of the negative workforce, cost of living stats are heavily influenced by Brexit. I can't understand why Labour won't stop side-stepping the disaster of Brexit.

Greyisnotmycolour

Well GSM it was your choice to put greed above anything else.

Greed? How insulting. I was a legal secretary, earning very little in the public sector. I turned down a place at university because I was engaged to be married. Less than two weeks into my marriage I discovered my husband was not the man he had pretended to be. He was abusive and not a reliable earner. I had made the wrong choice as regards education and marriage. I could do nothing about the marriage as I took my vows seriously, but I could, with years of hard work, further educate myself and have a career. So that’s what I did. My husband was happy for me to burn the midnight oil studying - he said when I qualified I could retire. Unfortunately he meant every word. I didn’t have my son until a few years after I qualified. Greed didn’t enter into it because I worked first in the public sector and then in private practice close to home until after my parents had died and my son, once he graduated, made his life in London. (The public sector and provincial law firms don’t pay a lot.). It was only then that I was able to move to a far better paid partnership with a City firm - I had been approached by that firm when my son was a toddler. Had I been greedy, I would have accepted their offer then wouldn’t I? I have no regrets about considering my son and my parents above my income and professional satisfaction, but it disappoints me greatly to be described as greedy. Perhaps you would like to reflect on the facts rather than your unfounded perception.

Very helpful WWM thanks. ☺️

To help you decide

Rosie51

That remark is uncalled for Greyisnotmycolour! You don't have to agree with GSM but nasty personal remarks are unnecessary.

👏👏👏👏👏

Germanshepherdsmum

Well, Cossy, you know how I managed to earn a lot more than £80k and it wasn’t easy. I had zero quality of life. The people you mention, with the exception of junior doctors (though they will become consultants or GPs), will fare much better than I ever did in the work-life balance stakes. If people prefer easier hours, less stress and don’t want to burn the midnight oil that’s their choice.

I’ve said before I absolutely admire your passion in work and employment and you were clearly driven and ambitious and did very well financially… However, and I know it’s their choice, but there’s not room for every nurse to be a matron, every teacher to be a head and everyone one else to be a CEO. Some people absolutely work their b******s off and still are unable to make the kind of income you did. Not because they don’t work very hard, not because they’re stupid or not ambitious, but because not everyone has this opportunity. It’s not always the hardest workers who work the longest hours.

With respect, I think we will have to agree to disagree as you appear to believe 95% (those not in the 5% earning in excess of £80,000pa) don’t work hard enough and have easier work lives and no work related pressure or stress.

GrannyGravy13

Germanshepherdsmum

It’s a figure I found by googling. It seems low to me as well but that’s what I found.

I have always thought the top 3-5% of earners as the multi millionaires/billionaires.

Here in the S E you would struggle to get a mortgage on anything other than a rabbit hutch on a single gross salary of £80,000.

You said it! It's extremely difficult for "average" workers to get a mortgage, which is why so many people rely on joint mortgages (with both people in a couple working) and inheriting money.

A very unpleasant and unnecessary post Greyisnotmycolour. A lot of GN's have benefited from GSM's generously given legal expertise, myself included.

GrannyGravy13

Germanshepherdsmum

Cossy

GSM I’m talking about the top 5% of earners, no one else.

That my personal view. No idea tbh what the LP view as “wealthy”, I appreciate it’s all relative.

Apparently anyone with a gross income of over £80k is in the top 5%. I’m glad I no longer work, but remember that figure will also include people who have unearned income such as pensions and rental income.

I remember John McDonnell - who is still around - saying that anyone who had anything to leave was wealthy.

That’s a low figure (£80,000) to be included in the top 5%.
(OK I know many earn a lot less, but many 1,000’s earn a hell of a lot more)

Think how many people/professions this includes…

It's true though. The figures are easily available, although they only include people who pay income tax. The income curve rises relatively steadily until the top couple of percent.

That's why it's laughable that people who only think they earn an "average" income are often deluded. The truth is that many of them earn far more than average.

GSM, I am rarely so rude but the comments you made about other workers life choices are every bit as a rude and if you make comments like that you should expect similar in return. It is quite clear from earlier discussion on this thread that 95% of workers earner less than £80K. To imply they that's their choice and they are basically lazy is incredibly insulting. What would happen if nobody wanted to do those jobs? As already happens in the care and farming sectors, the solution would be to employ immigrants but that doesn't please many people either. Not everyone can become a lawyer or earn £100k+, it would be good to acknowledge this and be thankful that there are people to fill all the roles we need to function as a society. So my apology, as spoken by good Tory, Pretti Patel "I'm sorry if you were offended".

Because the left have failed them? And what the people on Twitter and the media think on issues is about a thousand light years away from what 'ordinary' people think.

Have just looked at the numbers in my area last election and despite our Tory mp being horribly lacking in so many ways he got twice as many votes as the Labour candidate. That’s a lot to overturn this time.

This is a fairly poor somewhat run down town in the south east, with many social and other problems, yet people still vote Tory. Why? There is a well known conundrum often debated in academia known as The working class Tory vote, which questions why ordinary people would vote that way.

Given the average wage is now up to 35,000 gross if lucky, but average means many earn less, why on earth would they even consider voting Conservative. It’s a complete mystery to the academics. To me too.

Dont they realise that the Conservative goal is profit and to enrich the wealthy few, mostly their mates, business or personal, not the hard up rest of us? They don’t give a flying fig and have little respect for anyone or anything which doesn’t produce a profit and public service, as many other ordinary but vital jobs, are not there for profit, yet serve just as, if not more important a role as the financial sector.

Conservatives have governed for about 75 years out of the last 100 so have had more than enough time to ensure a fair society but under their governance the rich have got much much richer while the rest of us, the majority, struggle.

Yeah that was deeply unpleasant.
GSM is describing the reality of stressful highly paid jobs. We can pretend that those jobs dont require sacrifice if we want, dont know what that achieves but carry on.

Rosie51

That remark is uncalled for Greyisnotmycolour! You don't have to agree with GSM but nasty personal remarks are unnecessary.

👏👏👏